"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect."
                -- Carl Von Clausewitz

Author Topic: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight  (Read 39330 times)

Mike W.

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #45 on: 2014-03-11, 21:37:05 »
Initially yes, but their role shifted from hospital care, to armed pilgram escort, to a full-fledged fighting force (say that 10 times fast).The Hospitallers fought in a number of engagements, mostly serving militarily in and after the Second Crusade. They participated in the Battle of the Horns of Hattin and those who were captured were executed. They also participated in the Battles of Arsuf and Jerusalem. Additionally, they played a large role in the fifth and later crusades.
D’azur à trois fasces d’argent, et au chef gueule chargé de trois étoiles d’or.

"The first duty of a man is the seeking after and the investigation of truth." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #46 on: 2014-03-12, 03:05:00 »
Well in kingdom of.....
No im just kidding,
And hospitallers may be up there, But ive always viewed it as Teutonics have the shortest of 3 straws.
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"

Sir Douglas

  • Artificer of Stuff and Things
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 815
  • In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram.
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #47 on: 2014-03-12, 04:16:28 »
But ive always viewed it as Teutonics have the shortest of 3 straws.

Yeah, it seems like they're one of the "Big Three" Crusading Orders among medievalists, but are often forgotten by more casual observers of the Crusades. The Baltic Crusades in general don't seem to be quite as "popular" an area of study as the Outremer ones.

And let's not forget about guys like the Orders of Santiago and Caltrava. They're often overlooked even among the medieval community.
Per pale azure and argent, an eagle displayed per pale argent and sable, armed and langued or.

So a Norman, a Saxon, and a Viking walk into England....

Mike W.

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #48 on: 2014-03-12, 18:13:39 »
Or the Order of the Holy Sepulchre, the Order of St. Lazarus, and the Order of Mt. Joy
D’azur à trois fasces d’argent, et au chef gueule chargé de trois étoiles d’or.

"The first duty of a man is the seeking after and the investigation of truth." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #49 on: 2014-03-12, 19:08:03 »
Or the Order of the Marshal, oh wait never mind... Well me and my brother do not deny the other orders, its just the two largest one we were discussing.
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

SirNathanQ

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,742
  • "Nobiscum Deus" "Libertas ad omnes civitates"
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #50 on: 2014-03-12, 20:53:31 »
Honestly, this is a silly argument. On a one-on-one scale like this, you are basically asking who would win between a fiercely religious and well-trained German knight and a fiercely religious and well-trained French knight. At the individual level, the only significant difference is their average nationalities. They would both wear state-of-the-art armour, be trained to the highest degree, and they were both warrior monks (with rules that are highly intertwined), so they would have the same level of religious commitment. The winner is going to be whoever is on their game in that day, or gets lucky, or God knows what else happens. It's pointless.

And to answer the basic questions I've seen here, the Teutonic Knights were founded at the siege of Acre in 1191, with a military function based on Templars, as a German branch of the Hospitallers. They became their own Order shortly afterwards, and led the crusades against pagans. They were subservient to both the Pope and the Emperor, but in practice they were highly autonomous.

On a larger scale you can compare the Templars and Teutonic Knights and actually make some conclusions there. For instance, two interesting facts are that the Templars actually have a loosing record for the large battles they have participated in, and the Teutonic Knights led the only successful crusade (all the while participating in the loosing crusade, which was ran by a certain different order). Read from that what you will.   
"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect." -Carl Von Clausewitz
"He is truly a fearless knight and secure on every side, for his soul is protected by the armor of faith just as his body is protected by armor of steel." -Saint Bernard of Clairvoux

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #51 on: 2014-03-13, 19:40:08 »
Not really; the Templar would have won.  That is all.

lol
« Last Edit: 2014-03-13, 19:40:43 by Sir William »
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.”

SirNathanQ

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,742
  • "Nobiscum Deus" "Libertas ad omnes civitates"
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #52 on: 2014-03-14, 01:40:49 »
Not really; the Templar would have won.  That is all.

lol

Well the way I see it, we got a Templar and a Teutonic Knight here, care for some Harnesfechten?  ;)
"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect." -Carl Von Clausewitz
"He is truly a fearless knight and secure on every side, for his soul is protected by the armor of faith just as his body is protected by armor of steel." -Saint Bernard of Clairvoux

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #53 on: 2014-03-14, 02:56:16 »
Not really; the Templar would have won.  That is all.

lol

Well the way I see it, we got a Templar and a Teutonic Knight here, care for some Harnesfechten?  ;)

Harnesfechten? Is that a combat word?
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"

Sir Douglas

  • Artificer of Stuff and Things
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 815
  • In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram.
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #54 on: 2014-03-14, 03:14:32 »
Not really; the Templar would have won.  That is all.

lol

Well the way I see it, we got a Templar and a Teutonic Knight here, care for some Harnesfechten?  ;)

I'll bring the popcorn and watch! ;D



Harnesfechten? Is that a combat word?

It means something along the lines of "armored fighting". I believe it's specifically the term for a German school of armored combat, but don't quote me on that one.
Per pale azure and argent, an eagle displayed per pale argent and sable, armed and langued or.

So a Norman, a Saxon, and a Viking walk into England....

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #55 on: 2014-03-14, 03:21:45 »
Harnes= harness
Fechten= fencing

Remember, the determination pf which orders warriors would win is pizza.
Templar pizza with sausageay taste better than a Teutonic pizza with sausage. But a Teutonic pizza with pepperoni is better than a Templar pizza with pepperoni.
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #56 on: 2014-03-14, 13:14:38 »

Yes, literally "armor fencing". The term "fencing" is derived from "defense" (literally "defending"), and before it got associated with modern sport weapons, it originally referred to the martial arts, and the skill of survival.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #57 on: 2014-03-14, 15:44:26 »

Yes, literally "armor fencing". The term "fencing" is derived from "defense" (literally "defending"), and before it got associated with modern sport weapons, it originally referred to the martial arts, and the skill of survival.


I can't wait to learn it one day.
Hmm Perhaps some who are already trained could teach me some of the trade. Until I begin taking classes(until I have a job)
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"

Sir Douglas

  • Artificer of Stuff and Things
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 815
  • In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram.
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #58 on: 2014-03-14, 16:11:26 »
Lesson 1: Pointy end of sword towards enemy. Well...unless you're performing a mordschlag, I suppose.
Per pale azure and argent, an eagle displayed per pale argent and sable, armed and langued or.

So a Norman, a Saxon, and a Viking walk into England....

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: Argument: Templar vs Teutonic Knight
« Reply #59 on: 2014-03-14, 16:27:32 »
Step. 2 You take the banana
Step. 3 you eat the banana! Thus disarming him.
 
Me thinks I should invent my own style. That would be a challenge.
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"