Wedge riveted vs Dome riveted maille.

[Sir Ulrich]

I am wondering, ever since I saw wedge riveted maille for the first time in person at DoK I noticed how much softer and smoother the inside is. It doesnt cut me AT ALL when I touch it. I been considering replacing my hauberk with a wedge riveted one because there are a LOT of threads on my gambeson that got torn from putting it on and taking it off. Dont want to wear that down in all honesty. Also cant stand getting cuts from putting it on, I actually got my fingernail RIPPED off thanks to my hauberk and it was bleeding and hurt.
I think historical dome riveted maille was flat on the back as well rather than the rivets sticking out. The wedge riveted stuff seems more accurate IMO even if it's indian made after seeing erik's maille upclose and seeing how it was a bit more similar to the wedge riveted indian maille it seems better suited for not cutting me and not pulling all the threads out in my gambeson.
What I am wondering is is it the flat rings that cause that damage or is it the rivets that cause the linen threads to pull out? I also think with solid rings it would be less damage as well as it has 50% less rivets than the dome riveted all. Prolly would be more historically accurate as well.

[Sir William]

Is it possible you were wearing it inside/out?

[Sir James A]

Did you lose the entire fingernail? I forgot to ask. I've never heard of that happening from mail, nothing beyond nicks and abrasions.

To start with, a couple good reads:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26877 (this one is very short)

Sorry if I'm asking questions I asked and/or you answered at DoK - I was overwhelmed and don't remember much of the mail conversation since it was in-between talking to visitors...

Are you wearing the round head of the rivet on the inside or outside? The round head should be on the inside, not outside. It's like wearing a shirt "inside out", that is actually correct.

At DoK, were you comparing wedge riveted indian stuff with round riveted indian stuff? The difference in quality can have as much impact as the difference in the actual type of construction. Remember, we're paying really cheap labor to places that don't really care if it falls apart on us or not. There are plenty of issues with it, but to solve those issues will take work, or a couple thousand dollars - literally.

I don't remember the exact transition period and can't find the link that had the crossover info, but dome riveted mail was the most common type for a long, long time, starting with the romans (or before?). For your period, it would have been dome riveted. Wedge riveted is much later, towards late transitional or early "full plate" harnesses. Those that would have had it earlier on in the transition would be people with more financial standing and constantly staying at the forefront of armor evolution.

Tailoring your mail may help some. Having enough mail to flop around freely makes it easy for it to scratch stuff up (skin or cloth). If the round head of the rivets aren't all facing inward or outward, pick an "inside" and peen down the rivets that are rough to the touch. It doesn't take a big hammer or an anvil to do it, just a small, solid metal surface and a light hammer.

You can also look into either edging, or lining the mail. When I finish tailoring my hauberk, it's going to be lined so that it's easy to get on and won't rub or tear much. Same concept as sewing an arming cap directly to the coif, as I did with mine, and as the good Dr Metz seems to have done with his (from what I could see). I haven't seen anything to prove or disprove if mail was lined historically, but surviving stuff is so limited, and garments being natural fibers, it wouldn't survive for 1,000 years. There *IS* some historical artwork that shows what looks to be leather trim on it, and to me, leather trim makes the most sense as what they used to sew the lining onto the mail with...

The flat rings are more abrasive because they have a hard, angled edge. Round ring riveted is less abrasive because it's a curved surface. Solid vs riveted, the lack of rivet will make it less abrasive, but the ring itself comes down to being round or flat. Riveted will always be flattened around the rivet itself, too.

The "softest" mail you can get is round ring, welded mail. There's no rivets to rub, and no corners of the rings (when looking at a cross-section). The only one I know who makes that off the top of my head is Master Knuut, who does make it to your size so there's minimal / no tailoring needed, but I don't think it has any historical basis whatsoever. I've only seen it strictly in SCA context.

It comes down to a question of do you want something soft, that doesn't wear as quickly on your arming garments, or do you want something that is more historical, but has more wear-and-tear on the arming clothes. Historically, arming garments would have been replaced as needed, and the concern was more on living and being protected, rather than frayed or torn threads. If the threads did tear or fray, put a drop of super-glue or seam glue on them, and it will help keep them from fraying or pulling out more. I've worn my pourpoint once, it tore, and it got sewn. I've got a few things fraying on my arming coat that is only about a year old. They won't last forever, and aren't designed to - just keep it in mind as a wear and tear, replace as needed item - just like brake pads or tires on a car.

Hope that helps some.

[Silvanus]

Hi Sir Ulrich,

I, too, have a flat-ring, dome-riveted hauberk that I've worn for years, and have worn out at least one gambeson under it in that time fighting and just general wear - and even more tabards that go over the mail, and wear out far more quickly. One thing I started doing several years ago was to throw the hauberk into a bucket filled with course sand and roll it down hill several times. Not only does this blast it clean, it also serves to lessen some of the sharpness of the edges of the rings - like sandpaper on wood. Fewer frays on my gambesons and tabards  after that. One of my fight partners took it a step further and rubs his hauberk with lard; he swears it makes the hauberk more maneuverable, and insists that it was a historical practice. Try the sand and bucket rolling before buying a whole new hauberk.

[Sir Ulrich]

I could try wearing it inside out see if that helps but now the more I read about the "riveted does not equal historical" article the more I want new maille. The main issue I have now is the fact dome riveted maille nowadays doesn't look at all like historical stuff, in addition to not having the solid punched rings. My problem is the rings don't do this:

and all the time rivets fall out of my hauberk, like I will put it down on the ground and I'll see rivets on the ground. Overall I am rather dissatisfied with it now that I've actually seen and own the real stuff in person. Not tailoring my hauberk now cause I realize I want to get something new. Just need to find maille sold elsewhere that has better quality rivets. I remember Sir Nathan told me his wedge riveted hauberk wasn't missing any rivets probably because the GDFB wedge riveted stuff is made with a drift rather than a punch from what I've read. Punched riveted maille is inferior in quality to riveted maille made with a drift.

[Sir Edward]

MyArmoury doesn't allow hot-linking images, so we're just getting the logo. You'll have to download the image and include it as an attachment to show us.

[Sir William]

Ulrich, check these guys out:  http://www.capapie.co.uk/

I'm considering having my maille done by them...or going for a full welded/no rivet hauberk.  I'm wrangling with deciding between going more historical, or less-labor intensive...the welded rings have a lifetime warranty so it is quite hard to beat that, but it also does not hold up to close inspection.  Got to choose.

[Sir James A]

all the time rivets fall out of my hauberk, like I will put it down on the ground and I'll see rivets on the ground

That sounds unusual. I've had my hauberk up and down a whole lot of times between trying on, tying to tailor, clipping, checking, clipping, checking, and constantly working with it, and I've never seen a single rivet fall out (which would be on the floor in one room). Same for my chausses and coif, I've used them a few times around the house, no popped rivets I've spotted. All my mail is round/pin riveted, flat ring.

The biggest quality problem isn't the rivet itself, but more of how well they are (or aren't!) set/peened. If you have the time and desire, you could minimize loss with that hauberk by going over the rivets and tightening them all down (by tool or by hammer), and replacing any questionable ones (set too close to the edge, etc).

[Sir Ulrich]

Yeah, I fixed the pic. Should show now why wedge riveted maille doesn't have the rivet popping problem as easily.
Anyway I could do that and I have been doing it but it doesn't work I always seem to lose rivets easily. In all honesty I wish I could afford a full hauberk of Erik's maille plus chausses but thats not gonna happen anytime soon so I am trying to go for the next best thing. Oddly my old gambeson didn't have a problem with catching threads because it was heavy cotton canvas. I only made this purchase for this hauberk because of the sale and I thought the black looked cool and the sale pressured me. Now I don't really care if it's black or not because I can get a hauberk for the same price from KOA with the solid rings. At least now I never have to buy another coif again.

Cap a Pie seems to sell the kind I want. I'd have to keep an eye on them for now. Shipping would be huge though especially considering KOA said shipping it to NJ would be 30 bucks.

Welded maille would be an option, in all honesty I wouldn't mind having a full hauberk of that only issue is stainless is very shiny and doesn't have that dull iron look that gives the aesthetics I want. if I could get welded with the black coating that would be better.

This is why I hate ordering online, you don't see the goods in person before anything else, pictures can only tell so much. You gotta see and feel the goods to know if you'd be able to wear them.

[Sir Edward]

My riveted mail is mostly GDFB. I think the main thing I have from Icefalcon is the chausses.

My rivets aren't falling out, so it's possible you just got some bad mail. Mine DO however catch on things here and there, but it's not a big problem with mine. I have more of an issue with the rivets catching on other parts of the mail than on the fabric, and that's really only an issue if I'm wearing the hauberk and the chausses together.

Most of the rivets are pretty poorly closed on mine, admittedly. And the ones I'm riveting aren't any better. The tools just barely do the job.

[Sir Ulrich]

Yeah, I think my Icefalcon hauberk is inferior maille in all honesty. Gonna sell it for about 200 bucks below the normal price once I get wedge riveted maille. I did read it was used in the mid 13th century but only in Germany. Since my persona is German that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I do plan to keep my chausses however because I don't know where to find them elsewhere other than Cap a Pie.

[Sir William]

Y'know, I have no idea who made my shirt but I suspect it is India-made...but I have not lost a single rivet in the 4 years that I've had it.  That's troubling to read, Ulrich.

Since you got it from Icefalcon, I'd shoot a pm to Andre over at AA (or an email or phone call) and tell him what's going on...he might've gotten a bad batch.  In any case, let him know- I'm reasonably certain he'll sort you out.  Worth a shot, know what I mean?  Inferior product is inferior product, simple as that.

[Sir James A]

Yeah, I fixed the pic. Should show now why wedge riveted maille doesn't have the rivet popping problem as easily.
Anyway I could do that and I have been doing it but it doesn't work I always seem to lose rivets easily.

The biggest quality problem isn't the rivet itself, but more of how well they are (or aren't!) set/peened.

If you look at the top image in that picture, that's how the wedge starts out. The bottom is if it is peened over well. With wedge riveted, if it's not peened properly, the wedge itself will just swell out, pushing the ring out too, and can pop right out of the back too.

It all goes back to $0.18 an hour Indian labor to make this stuff, with rings that are too thin, by multiple people in an assembly line with little regard to what happens with the mail after it's sold. Properly set rivets should not arbitrarily come apart, wedge or pin. The difference in strength will be 99% in regards to being physically hit with a weapon and attempting to break it; for standard "dress" wear, there's virtually no difference between pin or wedge.

Here's what the GDFB pin riveted looks like (it's round ring, but the rivet issue is the same on both):


You can see plenty of rivets set near the edge of the flat part and in some cases completely off of it. THAT is the primary cause of ring loss / breakage. Compare that picture to your Schmid mail.

Okay, now here's what the GDFB wedge riveted actually looks like:


You can see towards the middle, one rivet is completely missing, you can see others are protruding upwards, you can see the sharp edges around the overlaps, you can see the thick side of the wedge itself isn't even peened flat either.

See how the proper wedge riveted SHOULD look like the image you linked from the thread I posted? See what the GDFB wedge riveted ACTUALLY looks like?

The main difference is that the rivets on the wedge riveted are in the proper place much more consistently than the pin rivets. But they're still not set well, and would require work.

There seems to randomly be a "good batch" of mail, and "bad batch" of mail. You might have got a bad batch of the pin riveted. Or somebody really hated their job that day. There's no guarantee the wedge will be any better. It's a shot in the dark.

Pin riveted mail is nothing more than a tiny version of plate armor rivets. If pin rivets couldn't hold well, we'd see people walking across the field with plates popping off of their harness. It's exceedingly rare because larger rivets on plate armor are properly peened. There's not many rivets to peen on a plate harness as compared to a hauberk, and mail rivets are small - hence, laziness and maximum profit happens over proper results. Even massive steel bridges that we drive on, and steel frameworks of skyscrapers have been assembled with basically huge peened rivets:



And at the end of the day, BOTH pin and wedge will be mildly abrasive to the arming garments due to the flat nature of the ring and moving around. And BOTH are going to need work to get them near what you want. Really, for what seems to be your main criteria (least harmful on arming clothes and soft to touch), what you want is welded mail. Historical seems to be lower on your priority list than softness and ring stability - and you seem to lose an excessive number of rings, more trouble than I've heard anyone ever mention - almost as bad as butted mail.

IceFalcon does have both welded hauberks and welded chausses available:
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/5-3-mm-chainmail-ff80818119f1676e011b2449dd4e3a1f-c.html
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FWIW, I've had minimal issues with my IceFalcon mail. I have the 9mm pin riveted stainless fauld, I had to add some columns to get it to fit. I tightened a few questionable looking links while I was doing that. Between VARF, Fort Belvoir, DoK, and random fun/testing at home, I've worn it roughly around 50 hours. I checked before DoK, and it was not missing a single ring or rivet. I've lost none from my IceFalcon chausses or hauberk either, though they've only been worn around the house thus far. Maybe you just got a spotty quality one?

[Sir Ulrich]

For me it's losing the rivets. I only lost about 5 rings so far but most people I talked to only lost 1 or 2. I guess I got a bad batch then. My main priority is finding one that wont shred my gambeson up and I swear it's the tail end of the rivets thats causing it rather than the flat rings. I didn't have this problem with my old gambeson, I guess my gambeson isn't heavy enough to handle riveted maille? If thats the case then I'm screwed cause I payed a lot for it. But I honestly don't think thats the case cause I saw a lot of other peoples gambesons that were made out of just as heavy linen as mine and it worked fine. Also noticed the place where the damage is is the same spot as seen here

[Sir Edward]

Don't forget you can use "Fray-Check" (clicky: http://amzn.com/B000YQKIDY) if you need to. You can clip those threads out, dab a little bit of this stuff on, and it glues the threads together in that spot so it doesn't come apart.