Comments/criticisms for the Order website

[Sir Edward]

Ah, Ok. Just wanted to make sure Paladin's COA didn't get messed up on our official website! 

Yep, no problem. We decided that the rule of tincture required the cross to be a color since it was on another charge that was a metal.

[Sir William]

Thanks for looking into that, Sir Nathan- and my thanks to Sirs Edward and James as well, for facilitating the changes.  We are looking good, knights!

I was uncertain as to where the 'elitism' stood...we are anything but elitist here, I'd think.  And while we are not chartered as such, I see nothing wrong with a locals-only group if that is what we had become; I like the idea of having knights from around the world invested into the order- it just speaks to brotherhood as far as I'm concerned.  With that mindset, I wasn't seeing what Andrew was talking about.  I suppose one could make that conclusion, if it was what they had in mind at the outset.

[Sir Gerard de Rodes]

Sounds kind of elitist since obviously no one outside that area has got wind of it...

There`s plenty of wind over here lol  

A fantastic job so far Sir James.

G

[Sir Edward]

On the elitism front, I think it's something we should probably be aware of and try to avoid as much as possible. I don't just mean behaving in an elitist way, but also appearances. Quite a few knightly Orders have sprung up over the years, and some of them did fall into the elitism trap.

Over on Chivalry-Now, there's been talk off and on about creating an Order, and people have raised similar concerns. Some people don't want to join them because, in their mind, an Order is elitist by definition. I don't think it's a fair assessment, personally, since any group/club will have to have rules concerning membership, otherwise it's not a group/club at all. At some point you have to have a constraint. For instance, if someone wanted to make a battered women's support group, they probably only want people joining who are, or know, a woman in that state. Not a bunch of drunk guys looking to kick their addiction. There are other groups for that.

But there are real cases of elitism out there for sure. It's since been taken down (their whole website is gone actually), but there used to be a thread over on the Knights of the Green Cross forum where they openly chided other groups for being open to all faiths. To them, if it's not founded directly in Christianity, then it's not truly chivalry or knightly. They were outright rude and dismissive to someone who was posting there, just looking to start a group and was asking around about knightly organizations in general.

But that's why I think it's good that we worked on making this group "flat" and not overburdened with rules and so on. There's really no gatekeeper as to who can participate, by design, except to find existing members to sponsor or knight you. If you can't get 2 or 3 members to like you, why would you want to join anyway? So I don't see this as an elitist mechanism that's meant to keep people out.

[Sir James A]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

Yep, we'll need to update it on the new site. Sir James is out of touch for a few days, so we can aim to fix it up next week.

I'll try to get it done later today or tomorrow. Definitely before the holiday weekend. I do have the rough start to an admin section for the Roster (secure area), for Sir Edward to be able to make additions/updates to ALL member info at his convenience. Nothing on the site will be locked down or inaccessible to him.

But that's why I think it's good that we worked on making this group "flat" and not overburdened with rules and so on. There's really no gatekeeper as to who can participate, by design, except to find existing members to sponsor or knight you. If you can't get 2 or 3 members to like you, why would you want to join anyway? So I don't see this as an elitist mechanism that's meant to keep people out.

If he didn't see the thread about forming an Order, I can see some possible confusion. I think we have a good structure, though. No requirements for entry, and some very basic requirements for becoming a Knight (which is the only available "promotion" that isn't annual). You nailed it too; if you can't find 2 or 3 people out of the entire Order who like you, you're probably in the wrong group, or not a good fit.

Historically, Knights were a somewhat "elite" group, and often held above others ... not by themselves, but by other members of society. As long as we're clear that the distinction is that we hold ourselves to a higher standard by trying to follow the path of Chivalry and we don't reject otherwise suitable people based upon non-relevant beliefs, I think we're fine?

[Sir William]

I do.  If I were looking for a strictly faith-based society, I think I'd be out of luck, not having a specific religion that I'm bound to. 

[Sir Patrick]

If we took a census today of the Order's members, none of us could check all the same boxes about our backgrounds/beliefs/ages/what-have-you anyway, so it seems pretty much a non-issue.  It's the pursuit of the chivalric path that binds us together--end of story.    BTW, IMHO I think that other group is being a bit narrow regarding Christianity as the only faith acceptable for chivalry.  We already have a thread going on the forum about the Islamic chivalric system of Sufi, and we should not forget that most samurai were Buddhists.  On a local level, chivalry may have religious flavorings, but the core principles are universal.

[SirNathanQ]

Hah, If were going by the religious extreme historical accuracy path, then only catholics would be allowed to have a kit dating earlier than early-mid 16th century!
Really, that mode of thinking is extremely narrow-minded and basically rude. Really. Even crusading knights in history had good relationships w/ their equivalents in Islam, and Saladin became a CHIVALROUS hero in Europe. Chivalry in period was not bound by religion.

and Paladin, no problem. I'm sure you would have done the same for me (although my COA is only sable and argent, so it's not too hard to mess up )     

[Sir Ulrich]

I'd like to join this group. Only issue is my kit is a bit lacking as of now, but once I get my mail hauberk I think my kit would be deemed acceptable.

[Sir Patrick]

Don't sweat the hauberk.  I don't have one yet either, but I'm in.  You get time to get your kit in order, so long as it's in reasonable shape to start with.  Click on "The Order" link at the top of the page to see our site and the rules (as they stand at this point b/c we're still pounding them out).

[Sir James A]

I'd like to join this group. Only issue is my kit is a bit lacking as of now, but once I get my mail hauberk I think my kit would be deemed acceptable.

As The Red Knight said, don't sweat the kit. It's not required to join. It's something you should have before becoming a knight, but I think the only thing you need to join as an initiate / new member is an interest in the group and interest in the path of chivalry.

(edited to remove my welcome to the forums comment ... seems you've been here a number of months. i just haven't seen the name before and thought you were new. my apologies.)

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, at first I was confused since I didn't approve a new forum account this week, til I realized who it was.

Anyway, yep, the kit has requirements for knighting but not for Initiate level. Since you've been here and have been following all of it, I think we can add you to the roster.

[Sir William]

Well, who is Sir Ulrich, I don't recognize him?  Welcome anyway, you're new to me.

[Sir Patrick]

Yeah, at first I was confused since I didn't approve a new forum account this week, til I realized who it was.

Aha!  I just figured out who you are/were, Sir Ulrich!  The "what brand of mail is this?" thread gave it away.  I'm so glad you decided to join our order!

EDIT to add quote.