Creating a society/order?

[Sir Edward]

Just found an Order of the Marshall on Facebook.  It's a page for anyone with Marshall as a first, middle, or last name.  Bummer.

We'll have to decide if that's enough of a conflict to not use it. It looks like the facebook page is just an informal group page and not a formalized organization.

We could come up with a few alternates, and put it to a vote. But then, so far it sounds like everyone is liking this name as it is.

[Sir William]

I don't see it as such...as you say, theirs is an informal group whereas we will have a charter with a focus; just my two cents, such as it is.

[Sir Edward]

OK, sample charter/bylaws/document is started. I colorized some parts in red to indicate they're completely up in the air and I only stubbed something out, or there's more than one way to do it and we'll need to decide. The rest of it is all still up in the air too, of course. Since we're still discussing everything.

http://modernchivalry.org/stuff/chivalry-order.html

As far as I'm concerned, I think everyone who is contributing to the discussion here can probably be considered founding members. Once we have it all assembled and underway, any new members would have to come in under the rules.

Another good question to ask-- Do we start as knights, or have to earn that? If the latter, I guess the first "commander" would be an Initiate Commander instead of a Knight Commander... lol

We can change all the terminology too. I just wanted to get the ball rolling on writing it all down in one place.

[SirNathanQ]

Yeah, even on FB, groups are somewhat illegal when used like that, or is that some other category 
anyway, I'm sure that they're not going to sue, considering that it is a group on facebook. And I really don't think were gonna piss off all of those individuals named Marshall for stepping on the toes of their favorite FB group....
If the order of the marshall name gets shot down (who knows, the FB page creator is probably a sue-happy lawyer....) I would propose the name
Knights of the New Chivalry.                   I wanted to keep the word modern out of it, since knight and that word dont mix well IMO
It also looks really cool written in french, which is I remember was the language most associated w/ high chivalry.
Chevaliers de la chevalerie nouvelle
Now if only I could figure out how to pronounce that.....
BTW, thanks Ed for the welcome.

[Sir Edward]

Now if only I could figure out how to pronounce that.....
BTW, thanks Ed for the welcome.

I'd have to demonstrate in person. (and mangle it in the process)

And, no problem!

[Sir Brian]

Well done Edward! I think you’ve covered most of the important aspects of laying down the foundation of our order.

If I may I would like to address this concern I’ve been reading in some other posts and that is the question of knighthood.  Many may feel unsure what constitutes as what and when it is appropriate to be given the accolade of knighthood.

I will answer that question with a question:
When did you decide you were a man? When did you determine that you were a responsible adult? Was it when the government/society determined it so when you lived for so many years? No, we come to that particular realization after we had to make some difficult and poignant decisions in our lives. In essence you just “KNEW”.

Therefore I propose as to when an initiate is deemed to be worthy a knight is when they decide. – No matter what their age and as for the bestowing of the accolade itself? – Historically it only required another knight to bestow knighthood upon a squire and it was only later that cost and pageantry of the knighting became less common.

As an alternative I suggest that we carefully explain this to future initiates and then when they feel they are ready they can then ask a knight to bestow the knighthood upon him in the presence of three other knights. This would also compel those already knighted to be familiar with whatever knighting ceremony we adapt.

~ my two cents ~ 

[SirNathanQ]

Yeah, what Id be worried about with that name is a rogue frenchman arriving and correcting us on our pronunciations... Or, God forbid, a rogue Frenchman arriving and TAUNTING us!!!!!!
and to Brian, I understand what you are getting at, But IMO someone should meet some qualification of a sort, required time in the order, passing a test, proving ones valor, displaying a following of the tenets of chivalry, ect.

[Sir Edward]

BTW, I checked the "KOM" abbreviate against Urban Dictionary, and there are only some minor gaming references, so we're clear here:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=kom

I'd also suggest we use the single-L version of "Marshal" since that seems most common in reference to William Marshal.

Anyway, back to knighting...  I think Sir Brian raises excellent points here. I'm still torn on the idea of whether to have some specific requirement that must also be fulfilled, but perhaps that's covered by having to convince three other knights to do the accolade. If you can't get three to knight you, you've clearly overlooked something. So it's a bit self-balancing.

We do need to remember that we're keeping this fairly low-key, and a lot rides on the "honor system" so to speak. We don't want to overload it with rules, and busy work to do to earn titles.

I think Sir Brian's suggestion will work for me. I'd love to hear more thoughts on it, of course.

[SirNathanQ]

well I could see how it would work out.
I think our knights them should have a course or a guideline system where they are taught how to judge who would make a good knight, or something like that. You know, teach them to say no if we have a bad apple and such.
and maybe we should make initial entry then a little selective, since it takes honorable people to make the honor system work

[Sir Brian]

Ah but my good sir that IS the point! - 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating' and 'the blood will out'or to use a more biblical phrase, 'You can tell a tree by its fruit'. A man's deeds and bearing will show through. If you were to ask me to knight you at this very moment I would have to say no because I do not know you well enough. I can only know about someone by having discourse with them. That is really all I'm suggesting. Let us get to know each other as men sharing a common desire to improve upon ourselves with honor, integrity, generosity, valor and forbearance.  Whatever we learn from this journey let us always remember that sometimes we are the student and sometimes we are the teacher, all have value and we are all equal when we come together as brothers in the pursuit of our chivalric ideals.
 

[Sir Matthew]

I agree with Sir Brian's requirements for Knighting. I would tend to think that most of us who are drawn to this are much harder on ourselves than anyone else is. The suggestion of having at least three knights participate does lend a sort of ballance to any who would jump the gun, so to speak.

[SirNathanQ]

Sure. And I completely understand, and to be frank, expected and am grateful that one of our founding knights wouldn't knight a guy he's really only met once at a Renaissance fair. Granted, that IS where I suspect most to-be-knights will be from, but I can assume that we all get the point.
I'm just happy to know that there will be a level of selectivity in this. There were bad knights historically, but they sure weren't order material!
I just know that there are times when talking people into "sponsoring" you or some smiler activity to get into some club or whatever was far too easy.
I simply want to make sure that's not us.

And don't get me wrong, I support almost everything you said, especially the improving of oneself. I think that should be one of the golden rules of our order. And I'm sure just by the kind of people whom this speaks to, and from what I've seen of this so far, that we really shouldn't have to worry about problems like that.   I only speak for the exception to the rule, and Justin Kase.  

[Sir Patrick]

Excellent work on the charter, Sir Edward!  Thank you for undertaking that important piece of business.  I hope you don't mind, but I'm nominating you to be the first Knight Commander of the Order (assumming I actually can make a nomination).  Sir Brian, I agree with you as well about someone asking for the accolade when they feel they are ready, and having a group of existing knights concur.  I do feel it is important to have some kind of minimum amount of time in the Order before knighting occurs, however.  I think it gives the potential inititate a chance to really find out if what we are doing is for him/her, and it gives the current knights a chance to get to know this person so as to make an informed decision when the time for knighting arrives.  I'm loving how easily this all seems to be falling into place, and the respectful dialogues we are having (all over this board, not just on this topic).  It is a true reflection of the kind of people that chose to be members of this forum, and the kind of people who will ultimately make up the the Order.

EDIT for typos 11/09/10

[Sir Edward]

Excellent work on the charter, Sir Edward!  Thank you for undertaking that important piece of business.  I hope you don't mind, but I'm nominating you to be the first Knight Commander of the Order (assumming I actually can make a nomination).  

Thanks, and I don't mind. I was thinking that's another step we'll need to discuss. When getting the ball rolling, we will need to figure out how to handle the first few accolades and who is the first Knight Commander, and what schedule to hold the elections (perhaps have a November election just like US elections).

I'm loving how easily this all seems to be falling into place, and the respectful dialogues we are having (all over this board, not just on this topic).  It is a true reflection of the kind of people that chose to be members of this forum, and the kind of people who will ultimately make up the the Order.

Same here. I'm loving how civil and respectful things have always remained on this forum, and how much everyone seems to be on the same page with this discussion in particular. You all rock. Every one of you.

[Sir William]

I don't feel as if I could add anything constructive that hasn't already been said, kudos to all of you for that.  I second the notion to nominate Sir Edward as our first Knight Commander...I think it would be fair to say that w/out him, this group of knightly individuals would not be enjoying the cameraderie we currently do because of this site and his vision of what knighthood truly embodies.

I like what you've done so far w/the charter, Sir Edward.

Sir Brian...I would kindly request that you disengage yourself from my inner mind as it seems you're saying what I was thinking re: manhood.  Well said, Sir!

I also like the idea of a prospective knight requesting sponsorship from current knights, maybe not three, perhaps a primary and a second, w/the KC performing the Accolade, in the presence of all of the knights, if at all possible.

In fact, that could be one of the events for which we all assemble...