Creating a society/order?

[Sir Edward]

Here's where I am concerned...I thought the whole point was for all of us to be equals...I figured the KC would embody most of what was mentioned (PR person, treasurer if needed, etc) - and he could of course delegate if others are willing to take on the task at hand...which I don't see as being a problem, we're all here for the advancement of the Order and its ideals, right?  A hierarchy would only mirror the SCA and other similar organizations- all of which most of us have had some experience with, positive or otherwise.

Second-in-command...how about we call that one the Seneschal?  So we'd have the Knight Commander, his Seneschal and the other Knights of the Order...the flatter it is, the better it'll be, I think.  As for how he is appointed, maybe the KC could make that choice since this person would essentially be his backup?  I should add, if one of us proves to be a capable and efficient administrator, he may find himself chosen for Seneschal on more than one KC's tenure, even if they've already served as such.  Not necessarily a problem for me, but it might be for that gifted admin.  lol

Oh yeah, for other offices, I'm thinking WAY down the line, if there's just more going on than we can reasonably expect one person to do. I'm thinking a lot of other jobs will be completely volunteer rather than assigned as jobs or positions. If someone is an artist, they could draw up a banner or poster or something. I'll probably end up being the webmaster just because I'm already doing that sort of thing, etc.

As for a second in command, here's another idea. Instead of it being an "office" or "position", rather make it more like a temporary deputy. That is, if we need one, we can appoint one for the month. The rest of the time there isn't one.

I agree. The more flat we keep the organization, the better. I really don't want to get bogged down this rules, ranks, titles, positions, etc. But just for practical reasons, we have to consider the options and make sure we write down the rules so everyone's on the same page.

[Sir William]

Ok, I feel better now that you've made that clear.  A month-to-month deputy who performs duties as needed is one way to go...or, the KC and Seneschal can be voted in at the same time, sorta like Prez and VP but that may be a bit much.  I'm good with either way you go.

[Sir Ancelyn]

Trust me, layers of offices and positions will bogg us down mand make this more like work than fun. I've been there. *shudders*

[Sir Edward]

Ah and speaking of spying upon another man’s inner thoughts, Sir Edward managed to channel mine with his suggestion:

What would be cool (though expensive) is if we were able to gift the new knight with a set of spurs.

Gilded of course and if the knight already owns a pair of spurs then we could provide some other appropriate gift of equal value to the spurs. The presenting of such gifts was customary and knightly.

It looks like we'd be looking at about $60 - $85 per set of spurs from Raymond's Quiet Press (https://www.quietpress.com/spurs.html) for gold plated and strapped. That's pretty affordable. If the sponsoring and/or accolade-performing knights chip in, then this is extremely doable. And it's cheaper than the brass ones from Revival (http://www.revivalclothing.com/spurs.aspx). The gold-plating is the best option anyway since they stay bright and shiny. Brass tarnishes in like a day.

[Sir Brian]

Yeah that was the source I was thinking of as well. By the time a member is ready to be knighted we would have a pretty good idea as to what period harness they have developed and could purchase the appropriate type of spurs to coincide.

I am in agreement with the more linear arrangement of positions and responsibilities and in due time it would be cool to see such functions as Marshal of the List, Knight of Ceremonies, etc.

[Sir William]

Think I'll get me a set...I'm already a knight so that's acceptable w/regard to the group, no?  I like the idea of the formation of other offices as necessity and time allow...let's keep it simple for the interim.

[Sir Edward]

BTW, placeholder website:  http://orderofthemarshal.org/

[Sir Edward]

Think I'll get me a set...I'm already a knight so that's acceptable w/regard to the group, no?  I like the idea of the formation of other offices as necessity and time allow...let's keep it simple for the interim.

Yeah, if you'd like to get a set, please feel free. As far as I'm concerned, we're all knights, but we'll probably want to think about knighting each other properly once we get everything figured out. But I'm open to suggestions here.

BTW, it just occurred to me... color on color. Hah, violation of the rule of tincture (unless I'm overlooking something about having a charge over a division):



Also, it looks like this is the arms of his son, Sir William Marshal the 2nd Earl of Pembroke, as shown on the Magna Carta. What I'm trying to figure out is if he inherited it from his father, or if it was unique to him. If it's the latter, I'd like to find the arms of the Marshal we're specifically honoring.

[SirNathanQ]

I think the 2nd in command should be chosen by the KC. The whole point is to have someone represent he KC while he's not present right? I think that the KC will best know who will do a good job representing him, the one whom we elected.
And I think that the 2nd in command would be our equal. He's just another knight with a fancy name while the KC is present. The only time the 2nd receives any extra powers is when the KC is not present, and then he simply does everything the KC does. I'm sure that the spot will command some respect and authority, but not any more than any other well acclaimed senior member.
and ooh, I like this idea about the spurs! 

[Sir William]

Think I'll get me a set...I'm already a knight so that's acceptable w/regard to the group, no?  I like the idea of the formation of other offices as necessity and time allow...let's keep it simple for the interim.

Yeah, if you'd like to get a set, please feel free. As far as I'm concerned, we're all knights, but we'll probably want to think about knighting each other properly once we get everything figured out. But I'm open to suggestions here.

BTW, it just occurred to me... color on color. Hah, violation of the rule of tincture (unless I'm overlooking something about having a charge over a division):



Also, it looks like this is the arms of his son, Sir William Marshal the 2nd Earl of Pembroke, as shown on the Magna Carta. What I'm trying to figure out is if he inherited it from his father, or if it was unique to him. If it's the latter, I'd like to find the arms of the Marshal we're specifically honoring.

I believe the arms of William the elder were simply the red lion rampant on a field of green and yellow...all the extra decoration on the green side appears to have been The Younger's addition.  I could be wrong, been known to happen. 

And I think I'll wait to see what the decision boils down to re: knighting of ourselves.

[Sir Matthew]

I think that keeping as few official offices as possible would be good at least in the begining. As the order grows, we made need to appoint other persons to assist the Knight Commander in seeing to the affairs of the order, dependant on how big and organized we become. SHOULD we ever become a large organization with multinational members or even just members spread across the eastern US, seeing to the affairs of the order may become too much to expect of one person, is all I'm thinking. I like the idea of the Knight Commander appointing a Senechesal to represent him in his absence, though I also think this should be a case by case appointment. In other words, if the Knight Commander can not make a meeting due to schedule conflict or distance, should we be so spread out, he would appoint someone to represent him at that particular event.

I like the idea of presenting spurs upon Knighting of a member. Maybe I'm crazy here, but I kinda like the silver look, I'm not much of a fan of gold, so when I get my set I think I'll select silver plating. Before I do that though, I have alot of work to get done on my Teutonic theme.

[Sir Brian]

It certainly is your choice Matt however I would like to point out that the metal of the spurs is very significant.
Gilded/Gold was for knights only, Silver was for squires and iron was for men-at-arms or sergeants. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spur#History

Here is another great source of information about the significance of the spurs.
http://muckley.us/Knighting.pdf
The Meaning of the Spurs:
The third knight then explains the symbolism of the spurs. He says: " A knights golden spurs symbolize many things, for by placing
the precious metal near his feet, he shows his disdain for worldly things, and his duty to commit no evil that might disgrace his
order. His spurs are sharpened to goad his steed just as a knight should goad the people to virtue, but a virtuous knight should also
make himself feared by the wicked."

[Sir Patrick]

I've been combing the net for a picture of the original Marshal arms, but can only find those of the second earl.  I think the extra stuff in the green field in the prior example is just artistic license.  I found this image of the 2nd earl's arms, and it's much more simplistic.  If the arms were inherited, I believe they would have looked like this at the time.

Also, I found this link to useful site on Marshal history.  http://www.williammarshal.com/intro.html  The entry for 1164 on the "William Marshal Timeline" page really illustrates the kind of man we have chosen to emulate.

I agree that we should keep things fairly flat officer-wise for now as there are just not that many of us.  It's kind of silly for a dozen guys to have eight officers (just making those numbers up BTW).  Obviously as the Order expands (which I hope happens in a well-considered manner), this will need to change.

Sir Edward, excellent start to the webpage.  You are truely talented in web design (as this site can attest).

Loove the idea of spurs

[Sir Wolf]

so who's making the round table for all of the equal knights to sit around? and where should we store it?

[Sir Wolf]

sorry i haven't been on much to help. this is good stuff though!