Let's Discuss Honor, Pt 2 (Real Tourney Example).

[Thorsteinn]

Let's talk Honor.

In the SCA, if struck in the leg or arm with sufficient force you lose the use of said limb. It is customary in some places to match the opponent, thus if they are legged you go to your legs, lost arm, you lose an arm, etc. There is among KSCA no consensus on the matter whether doing or not doing this is a good idea. With some calling it fair play and others calling it a backhanded insult. So below is a good example.

 I think the winner fought smart, well, and showed his opponent great respect an honor by not giving up his earned advantage.
Thoughts?

Trimaris Fall 2009 Crown Finals: Duke Thorsten vs Sir Krotuas.
(both are lefties too)

[Thorsteinn]

And, as Sir Ian pointed out, I rarely give my own opinion on the thought provokers anymore so that I don't prejudice the discussion. However here I have, and it goes like this:

I'm trying to move away from giving up an earned advantage. I feel it shows all my opponents great respect by showing them I feel they are my equal, and given I'm a sneaky bastard on the field I'm betting they are too.

[Don Jorge]

In my short time in the SCA I have never seen someone give up their advantage earned in combat. The one exception is a two sword fighter losing an arm and the opponent giving up their shield to fight one sword vs one sword...

I see no honor in giving up an earned advantage. You bested your opponent and surgically took away what he or she left open. Now you get to use that leg or arm being disabled to finish the fight.

[Sir James A]

Agreed, you earned the advantage, retain it. Not doing so may smack of "I could fight you with one arm behind my back! Oh wait, you're doing that? I'll do it too and I can still win!"

[Sir Edward]

Personally, I agree. Don't give up the advantage. Make the other person earn their hits, and those hits will be more meaningful.

That's something we've been doing in our demos too, is to not hold back. I remember a few years ago when Sir Nathan asked if we were going easy on him, and our answer was "no". I think that meant more to him that way (he can chime in and let us know for sure).

Same deal with our guest "sword & buckler" fighter at VARF. I made him work for hits (which in this case turned into double-kills, but whatever):

(the link should start at the right time index)
https://youtu.be/KKrD_k97DZE?t=13m13s

[Sir Martyn]

My own view is this should depend on the fight - agree that is in part the point of the duel, but if you feel honor dictates as a sign of respect for a particularly worthy opponent or memorable fight, it could be a nice gesture of respect.

[Sir William]

I wouldn't give up the advantage.  You worked to get it, you should keep it.

[Sir Douglas]

I agree that I think it should depend on the particular fight/combatants involved. If they really feel they need to do it like that and agree on it beforehand, then fine. Otherwise, it seems kind of silly to give up a legitimately earned advantage.

[Sir William]

Not to mention, the SCA is a re-enacting society- as such, I would think they would seek to reenact all aspects, or as many aspects of medieval practices as possible.  I cannot recall ever reading how one or the other combatant gave up an advantage outside of fictional works.  I know they aren't fighting to the death, but aren't they supposed to behave as if?

[Ian]

...the SCA is a re-enacting society- as such, I would think they would seek to reenact all aspects, or as many aspects of medieval practices as possible...

That's a hell of an assumption if you've never been to an SCA event.

As far as this scenario goes, no I don't think you should give up your earned advantage.  I don't think it makes you more honorable to immediately give up what you've just earned especially when it falls inside their rules of a chivalric martial art.

[Sir William]

Well, perhaps not the entire society, but a good number of the players make the effort is what I should've said.  Thanks Sir Ian.

[Ian]

Well, perhaps not the entire society, but a good number of the players make the effort is what I should've said.  Thanks Sir Ian.

I can't tell be your response, but just in case... it was just a joke.

[Aiden of Oreland]

Why go through the trouble to defeat your opponent just to give him the advantage? If both agree to the terms of the match the honorable thing would to be see it out. Would the opponent not recognize his foes earned advantage and respect its well earnings.

[Thorsteinn]

My views are not common in the West Kingdom. We have this weird "no arm taking" & "extreme fair play" issue going. To the point I have seen a fighter not go for legs or arms that then got pissed when their opponent didn't match their high-minded silliness.

Besides, the word-fame of one who beats another from great disadvantage is not small. So why deny the opponent that chance?

[Lord Dane]

Your fight for the Crown is how you honor yourself in combat. I expect my opponent to take my head and claim what has been rightly earned and justly deserved. No victory without sacrificing something, but what are you willing to give in order to gain? A noble gesture shows good intention but if you are so willing to take the Crown in a fight, you best earn it. Nothing is giving freely, and merit must be earned.