"He is victorious who knows when and when not to fight."
                -- Sun Tzu

Author Topic: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.  (Read 62268 times)

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #30 on: 2013-07-07, 23:16:55 »
If someone needs to tear someone else down in order to feel better about themselves, they are a 't**d in a punchbowl'.
vs.
I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules  ;D
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).

Isn't that the same thing?

What purpose would John Clements fighting anyone with BotN rules serve?  BotN and Armored Combat League have virtually nothing to do with the historical technique of Liechtenauer or Fiore, or anything from our past for that matter.  It's just a brawl in armor using swords as clubs.  Sure it's a tough sport, and cool to watch, but it has nothing to do with the techniques people like John Clements, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler etc are interested in reviving.  You just want to see someone get beat up, isn't that the same as bringing someone else down to feel better about oneself? 

John Clements can be very abrasive.  That's his personality, but to pretend like he's not a good swordsman is denying a fact staring everyone in the face.  He just seems to be the guy who likes to take his ball and go home if others don't see things his way, but his accomplishments in the world of historical swordsmanship cannot be overlooked.

Well stated Sir Ian and absolutely spot on. Nobody can deny that John Clements is passionate and dedicated about his study of the various HEMA disciplines. If we were to compare the HEMA world to the world of Harry Potter, John Clement would be Severus Snape who afterall, was far more than he appeared to be as well as being exceptionally skilled in his craft.  ;)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #31 on: 2013-07-08, 15:06:55 »
Well stated Sir Ian and absolutely spot on. Nobody can deny that John Clements is passionate and dedicated about his study of the various HEMA disciplines.

Seconded! Thank you Sir Ian for putting that into perspective.

I may have neglected to mention it in here, but John Clements is the reason that I am even interested in WMA/HEMA at all.

I've long had the interest in medieval armor and weapons, however, the knowledge from that interest all drew from the "typical" sources - Hollywood movies (Excalibur, First Knight, A Knight's Tale, Black Knight, Robin Hood, etc), Renn Faire shows, and choreographed stage combat of "thrust, parry, thrust, parry" or "awkwardly and slowly swinging this sword-thing like a grunting caveman club" (Crude and slow, clansman, crude and slow). Let's just say I had a normal modern-day mindset of medieval combat, and it didn't match up with actual historical manuscripts at all. I had been looking around the internet for any local SCA practices when I found the ARMA forums and there was a thread about Clements coming to do non-SCA "real sword" classes about a half hour from me, so I signed up...

When I met him in person he was not as unruly as he is in most of his writings; he is also extremely passionate and he's very knowledgeable (whether people agree or disagree with his interpretations is another thread). He did smack down on the SCA, which may have been since I mentioned SCA as my only medieval combat experience (he went around the room and had everyone introduce themselves). It could have been because everything he taught about blade handling had nothing to do with the SCA methods, saying a sword is a sword and not a club, he covered binding, etc.

The class with him was the first WMA/HEMA exposure I had at all. From the start I was in awe of how he handled the sword; 15 years of owning them and I had *never* seen such gracefulness *and* aggression. It's hard to match his physical enthusiasm and aggression in some of his videos when compared to others. He noticed that I was behind the others in grasping the basic guards and strikes; it may have helped I was the only one without a red shirt, which I learned later in the day meant I was the only non-ARMA member there. He didn't say "you slow, boy?" or anything to that effect; he paused what he was teaching and asked if I needed help, and showed me what I was doing wrong.

The class was a couple hours (2, maybe 3?) long, although it all felt a blurry whirlwind of excitement. After class was over, they went to lunch there in town (walking distance). I got to go as well, which was a nice gesture as I was the "odd one out" being the only non-member there. Everyone sat around and talked, I wasn't left out of any conversations, and it was pleasant. After lunch we went back, and there was a follow-up class... however at that point it was "the regular class is over" and "ARMA members only" for the after-lunch portion. I was okay with that since it was not advertised as being a two-part class, so I got what I paid for. I was saddened that there was an online process to go through for applying and approval for membership in the group, as it meant I couldn't ask "Can I join you guys?" on the spot (as the founder/main guy was right there). I always wondered what happened at that second part.

I applied online, but never got an acceptance, which I guess is implied rejection. I didn't own an Albion, I had never heard of one, and my only experience was SCA, and I didn't like the "what you learn here stays here" concept of being unable to share things with my brother or friends, so I'm not too shocked I wasn't accepted. After I learned more, it was clear we probably would not have meshed well philosophically.

After that, I went home with a completely new respect for the European style swords. Had I not gone to that class, even though I didn't end up in ARMA, and had I picked up the local SCA fighter practice again, I likely would have been down a far different path than I am now.
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #32 on: 2013-07-08, 15:32:52 »

That's the thing, love or hate the guy, he does a lot to gain exposure for the sword-arts at large. He's passionate about it, is very skilled, and it shows. To some degree, we all have him to thank for helping to get historical sword combat into enough of a spotlight that we can actually have a modern resurgence of these arts. He was a pioneer in that regard.

It really comes down to a philosophical difference between his organization and the rest of the HEMA/WMA community (which itself can be further divided at times).

I just wish he didn't spend half the words in his writings disparaging everyone else. Make your point, and let it stand (or not) on its own. If you have to waste your breath disparaging everything else, there's a problem. It's just not necessary.

Because of the closed-door, drink the kool-aid, street-fighter sort of approach he's had lately, ARMA starts to come off as being the Cobra Kai of the HEMA world. Again, it's not really necessary, and it just sequesters them away from everyone else.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Wolf

  • He Who is Not to be Named
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,389
  • i have too many hats
    • man e faces
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #33 on: 2013-07-08, 15:52:43 »
don't make me go all crane front kick to your chin!

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #34 on: 2013-07-08, 21:05:41 »
Until he's willing to prove what he knows against a resisting opponent who isn't of his tradition, on camera, he will always come off to me like the Kiai Master in the fight vid below IE the "My Awesomeness is too awesome for you! If I used it on you you would explode from my sheer awesomeness which is why I don't fight".

Fall down seven, get up eight.

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #35 on: 2013-07-08, 21:59:07 »
My dad can beat up your dad.
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Lord Dane

  • The Hound, Hunter, and Hammer of Justice
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,900
  • Selflessness, Service, Justice.
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #36 on: 2013-07-09, 00:17:39 »
My dog just ate your honor roll student.
"Fides, Honos, Prudentia, Sapiencia" (Faith, Honor, Prudence, Wisdom)
"Fiat justitia ruat caelum" (Let justice be done)

Sir Wolf

  • He Who is Not to be Named
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,389
  • i have too many hats
    • man e faces
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #37 on: 2013-07-09, 01:14:03 »
"he's the best, ah-ahhhhhhhh"

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #38 on: 2013-07-09, 01:38:44 »
That's the thing, love or hate the guy, he does a lot to gain exposure for the sword-arts at large. He's passionate about it, is very skilled, and it shows. To some degree, we all have him to thank for helping to get historical sword combat into enough of a spotlight that we can actually have a modern resurgence of these arts. He was a pioneer in that regard.

I also like that he, though not very often, posts videos of different aspects and includes demonstrations. I haven't seen that from many other "high tier" teachers. For people like me who don't have anyone else nearby, and are too focused on buying armor to spend lots of money on classes, videos are a great learning tool.

I just wish he didn't spend half the words in his writings disparaging everyone else. Make your point, and let it stand (or not) on its own. If you have to waste your breath disparaging everything else, there's a problem. It's just not necessary.

Agreed, and it's a shame that in all the years of his doing WMA/HEMA, he still continues doing that.

Until he's willing to prove what he knows against a resisting opponent who isn't of his tradition, on camera, he will always come off to me like the Kiai Master in the fight vid below IE the "My Awesomeness is too awesome for you! If I used it on you you would explode from my sheer awesomeness which is why I don't fight".

I used to think that, but it's still just a competition for points or other measurement of "win" vs "lose". It doesn't show who does or doesn't understand what the Masters of history were trying to teach. It doesn't show who is right or wrong. It doesn't show which style is superior or inferior. How do we know the "winner" is right on how they've learned, and using an inferior style, but still "won"? A superior fighter with an inferior style can still win. What does that mean to the Art?

Unless two people are fighting each other using sharps with full intent to break bones and/or kill one another, it doesn't prove anything. I'd rather we have more WMA/HEMA teachers, than less. :)
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #39 on: 2013-07-09, 02:20:51 »
We had a guest at MASHS yesterday and he was from Southern California where he is part of the KRON Martial Arts - HEMA schools. His name is Myles Cupp and he was very gracious and skilled with the longsword, as well as the rapier. He is in our region to attend the Longpoint Tournament next weekend and found the MASHS website and trained with us for the day. We all welcomed him and really enjoyed training with someone we never fought with before. As I said he was very skilled with the longsword but we also got him to try the French Small sword and the Saber. Which brings me to the point that whenever the HEMA/WMA community loses this passion to resurrect these lost martial arts then that will probably be the day I stop because as fun as it all is the most exciting thing about this type of training is being a part of this great rediscovery!  ;)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #40 on: 2013-07-09, 15:28:57 »


What the hell is a Kiai master?  It looked like he missed most of his 'blows' - that one guy who was flopping about like a fish was most comical.  He looked almost surprised when he got hit the first time...can only imagine he was quite nonplussed when the next several shots connected and put him down.  Question is- how many of his students remained after that?
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #41 on: 2013-07-10, 00:34:48 »
A bit like this dude I suspect.
« Last Edit: 2013-07-11, 01:11:52 by Thorsteinn »
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #42 on: 2013-07-10, 12:55:33 »
A bit like this dude I suspect.
Phony Karate Master - No Touch KO Debunked]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0#]Phony Karate Master - No Touch KO Debunked
[/url]

Naruto and DragonBallZ aren't real!?!?

*stomping off in a temper tantrum*

I believe that's apples to oranges in regards to Clements vs Anyone, though.
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #43 on: 2013-07-10, 16:53:39 »
I believe that's apples to oranges in regards to Clements vs Anyone, though.

Precisely.  John Clements doesn't claim to use magic like those idiots.  Even then, it's not like the heads of various martial arts schools go around challenging each other Mortal Kombat style, to see who's kung fu is strongest...  Stuff like that is straight out of a movie.  I think it's a bit silly to expect John Clements to have to fight some WMA person from another organization to prove himself.  He's done that already through meticulous research, handling of original artifacts and manuscripts etc... 
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #44 on: 2013-07-10, 17:23:16 »
I think it's a bit silly to expect John Clements to have to fight some WMA person from another organization to prove himself.  He's done that already through meticulous research, handling of original artifacts and manuscripts etc... 

I disagree.  All the research and handling of original artifacts in the world does not necessarily translate to skill in the practical application.  And that various so-called masters no longer participate in contests, well, I can't honestly say that's such a great thing.  For one, you could hardly call yourself the best if you've gone largely unchallenged by worthy opponents- beating up on your students only proves you can beat them.

I used to be a huge Bruce Lee fan, well, I still am, just not so rabid with it- but he was challenged pretty regularly early in his career because no one believed he could be that good.  Except he was, and he'd proven it time and again.  I'm sure if I did some research, I'd find other masters of their respective craft doing the same.

I guess what I'm saying is, why shouldn't they?
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€