John Clement, not being knightly.... again.

[Sir James A]

I inject a little levity to say this- none of us should take ownership for his snide comments to the sword community at-large, it simply does not apply to us.

This is the most important thing to remember with this. Having sat at lunch with John Clements and a hand full of his students for an hour or so, back in 2009 or 2010, he is not nearly as abrasive in person as he comes off to be online, and his frustration goes well beyond the WMA community and out into the general populace, Hollywood and all. While he will take pot-shots at the SCA and other WMA groups around almost every corner, the majority of his ire was directed at people who think and perpetrate the notion that medieval combat was like two cavemen slowly banging clubs together while drooling on each other and pooping themselves at the same time.

[Sir Edward]

That may be true, but boy, whenever he writes, he spends half the article taking shots at everyone else and displaying unending levels of arrogance. A lot of people come off differently in person than they do in their writing, but you'd think that when writing online, you would want to be as credible as possible. To me, when it's dripping with attitude, the credibility goes out the window.

[SirNathanQ]

I feel the same way. IMO it's more forgivable to come off as some guy with attitude in speech than one's writing. when writing you have to deliberately consider everything twice (thinking it out, and then writing it down), as opposed to speaking, where if a person lacks tact they can spew off every little thing that enters their brain. He had to take a look at what he wrote, and say "Yes, this is the message I want the public to see." 

[Sir James A]

That may be true, but boy, whenever he writes, he spends half the article taking shots at everyone else and displaying unending levels of arrogance. A lot of people come off differently in person than they do in their writing, but you'd think that when writing online, you would want to be as credible as possible. To me, when it's dripping with attitude, the credibility goes out the window.

Oh, absolutely, he's a ****** of the highest level online. No disagreement there. Just speaking from an "offline" perspective. In person, he lost my interest when he said 'what is learned in the ARMA circle, stays in the ARMA circle, and thou shalt have no other teachers', before I had even taken any other WMA classes/events - which is a shame, because there's an ARMA group ~20 minutes from me, vs the ~75 minutes to VAF (the closest other WMA group) - but I won't support their attitude.

[Lord Dane]

Maybe it's just me but it looks like some medieval variation of any of the "Jackass" movie sequels. Just saying. 

[Joshua Santana]

Sword wounds.  The thing that will strike fear into an enthusiast. 

Yep, sharp swords can cause significant damage to the body and increase the risk of death.  The proof is the swords by their weight alone is enough to cut and puncture the flesh without using any power.  You have to take into consideration that anything sharp will be used with inertia, power and direction, multiply those time the amount of power you throw into a cut, slice or thrust you will create significant damage. This is why unarmored longsword fighting focuses on the Four Openings because arm or leg wounds will be staggering or incapacitating wounds.  Torso hits, heat cuts, and opened intestines are killing blows.   

But people can be idiots by trying to get away bouting with sharps.  They will need an ambulance on the spot. 

John Clements to me is a good fighter (although I am a bit skeptical of his martial prowess) but one arrogant individual who thinks he ha sit all because he thinks like a fighter and a scholar at the same time.  He can't even cite his resources as much as give physical proof as to why edge to edge contact must be avoided.  I believe his credibility is already gone and he is desperate to get it back by using articles. 

If you want to see actual drills using sharps in a safe but elegant manner, here it is:

[Sir William]

Sir Joshua, if you strike another sword's edge with your own, depending on the strength of that strike, you can nick or even fold the edge if it is razor sharp.  I don't think you need to cite resource or demonstrate it for it is widely known, or should be.  As for his credibility, whether or not he can actually fight with a sword is one thing, but I do not consider his contributions or knowledge to be of little value, quite the contrary.

What I, and everyone else it seems take issue with is his attitude.  Unfortunately, that is a personal shortcoming that he needs to work on, no one can alter that for him.  FWIW, I can understand where he's coming from- let us assume for the nonce that this is in fact his life's work and he treats it with the honor and gravitas one should for his/her life's work - thinking about your own, or my own, how irritated would you get if, despite your best attempts, the world at-large remained ignorant of your contributions and intellect, opting instead to continue holding onto ill-conceived, even downright wrong notions about what it is you or I do?  Not as in the hobby it is for most of us, but your life's work, the road less travelled, the one thing you do that sparks your creativity, your love of your craft- your very reason for being?

Now, I'm only playing devil's advocate, I'm not condoning his attitude or even suggesting he has the right of it (he has a right to feel however the hell he wants to, but he does not have a right to expect that all others must accept it w/out reserve), only suggesting there may be more to it than what we read in the article, or articles that he's written in the past.

Also, those drills you posted are not inherently safe.  Safer than two unknowns fencing, yes, as these two seem to know one another and share a mutual trust- but the only safety equipment I see are their helmets, and the fact that they are moving very slowly- even so, one slip by either fencer and you're looking at a potential ER visit.  Even with full armor and padding, injuries can occur with sharps.  No, I would not advocate practicing in that manner.  Let them armor up- then they're safer.

[Sir James A]

Also, those drills you posted are not inherently safe.  Safer than two unknowns fencing, yes, as these two seem to know one another and share a mutual trust- but the only safety equipment I see are their helmets, and the fact that they are moving very slowly- even so, one slip by either fencer and you're looking at a potential ER visit.  Even with full armor and padding, injuries can occur with sharps.  No, I would not advocate practicing in that manner.  Let them armor up- then they're safer.

Agreed. I'll go so far as to say there is *never* a "safe way" to practice with sharps with another person. There is "safeR", but the only time, IMO, sharps should ever be used, is for solo cutting (or zombie apocalypse...). There's no reason whatsoever to put life and limb at risk by using sharps when trainers are safer and available, regardless of skill or lack of skill, accidents can happen, and using sharps proves a lack of concern for yourself and others, rather than courage or bravery. I can go stand in traffic knowing that most people will swerve to avoid me, and bank my odds until I do get hit by someone not paying attention or who doesn't see me ... and in that case too, it's not bravery, it's hedging a bet until I lose, and with nothing to gain.

[Sir William]

Agreed.

[Joshua Santana]

Sir Joshua, if you strike another sword's edge with your own, depending on the strength of that strike, you can nick or even fold the edge if it is razor sharp.  I don't think you need to cite resource or demonstrate it for it is widely known, or should be.  As for his credibility, whether or not he can actually fight with a sword is one thing, but I do not consider his contributions or knowledge to be of little value, quite the contrary.

What I, and everyone else it seems take issue with is his attitude.  Unfortunately, that is a personal shortcoming that he needs to work on, no one can alter that for him.  FWIW, I can understand where he's coming from- let us assume for the nonce that this is in fact his life's work and he treats it with the honor and gravitas one should for his/her life's work - thinking about your own, or my own, how irritated would you get if, despite your best attempts, the world at-large remained ignorant of your contributions and intellect, opting instead to continue holding onto ill-conceived, even downright wrong notions about what it is you or I do?  Not as in the hobby it is for most of us, but your life's work, the road less travelled, the one thing you do that sparks your creativity, your love of your craft- your very reason for being?

Now, I'm only playing devil's advocate, I'm not condoning his attitude or even suggesting he has the right of it (he has a right to feel however the hell he wants to, but he does not have a right to expect that all others must accept it w/out reserve), only suggesting there may be more to it than what we read in the article, or articles that he's written in the past.

Point taken Sir William.  Concerning the video, I would blame Guy Windsor for having the idea of drilling with sharps but I think that with what you and Sir James said, you are correct in that regard but also I think it is a nice idea to drill using sharps.  It gives us a reality check and can be a bridge to reconstructing the Art used in real life.  Mutual trust and severe caution are always taken into consideration.

[Sir Edward]

Guy Windsor and his caliber of instructors are probably the only ones I'd trust to do this. You can see in his video that he kept it really low-key. They knew what each other were doing at all times, and the moves were slow and without power. The only reason to use sharps in a drill is to see how a real sword behaves differently in the bind as compared to a blunt. The difference is subtle, but real.

It's a valuable exercise if you can do it safely enough (I still think in that video they're crazy for not having hand protection and for showing that much bare skin, but at least they have the masks). But the key is to keep it really slow and controlled, with no surprises.

Under most circumstances, the sharps are a really bad idea. And it's just dumb to use them at any kind of speed.

[B. Patricius]

I can't fall asleep so I'm perusing the forums.  I met Mr. Clements in 2005.  I also back then signed up for ARMA.  At the time, I knew little about the SCA or other groups.  I just happened to bump into him, literally at a ren-faire, we started talking so I thought to join. 

After taking advantage of ARMA's extensive resources and library I left that group in 2007.  I basically got tired of the "our way is the only way" kind of attitude.  Also, of note, I wasn't anywhere where I could practice with them unfortunately, I was on my own.  In 2010, I learned the past of Mr. Clements and his relationship with the SCA, or as far as their perspective of it. 

Personally, I think there is a lot out there that is wrong, and it's true.  But, there's also a lot out there, both recent developments and much older stuff, that isn't wrong and is in fact quite good.  We're all trying to interpret something that may have one picture, or two, snapshots if you will, of a full movement.  Try and imagine if there were individual frames, like for animation, of those movements instead?  It would be amazing, and far easier for everyone to see something more similar.  But as far as I'm concerned, there are schools today, as there were hundreds of years ago.  And I must say, one of the things I enjoy, is that today it seems, no one for the most part, except Mr. Clements, says their way is the only way!  When I checked out the SCA for four months, three days a week training for minimum four hours a day, I really enjoyed how I could show them my stuff, and although they were quite persuasive about how they did it, allowed me to at least show mine. 

Beyond that, I too have a problem with a lack of respect towards the weapon.  That has been a pet peeve of mine since I was little, and needless to say in this group, I don't think I need to extrapolate on the gory details of what scarred me.  It saddens and scares me that people can get lax.  It doesn't matter if it's a police officer with their sidearm, a Marine and his rifle, or a SCAdian with a "stick."  All can kill and maim and we need to respect them as such.  Usually if I see that kind of disrespect towards that particular weapon, I don't practice with them anymore, be it at a range, the desert, or on a tournament field.

It saddens me that Mr. Clements has gotten this elitist sort of viewpoint because I know he's a treasure-trove of knowledge.  The fact remains though, we weren't there to witness it.  We don't have recordings (and how often to people call "foul" in a baseball game or football game with video devices!?) all we have is our passions and their artifacts.  Everything else has come from that, and we all can do so much more if we work together.

[Hrolfr]

He's no Mike Loades, Gemini Asonte, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler, Ken Mondshein, or Toby Capwell.

You forgot Bob Charon. 

If someone needs to tear someone else down in order to feel better about themselves, they are a 't**d in a punchbowl'.

I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules 
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).

[Ian]

If someone needs to tear someone else down in order to feel better about themselves, they are a 't**d in a punchbowl'.

vs.

I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules 
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).

Isn't that the same thing?

What purpose would John Clements fighting anyone with BotN rules serve?  BotN and Armored Combat League have virtually nothing to do with the historical technique of Liechtenauer or Fiore, or anything from our past for that matter.  It's just a brawl in armor using swords as clubs.  Sure it's a tough sport, and cool to watch, but it has nothing to do with the techniques people like John Clements, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler etc are interested in reviving.  You just want to see someone get beat up, isn't that the same as bringing someone else down to feel better about oneself? 

John Clements can be very abrasive.  That's his personality, but to pretend like he's not a good swordsman is denying a fact staring everyone in the face.  He just seems to be the guy who likes to take his ball and go home if others don't see things his way, but his accomplishments in the world of historical swordsmanship cannot be overlooked.

[Lord Dane]

Yeah!!! Medieval hockey baby!! I feel the urge to check someone into a wall & clock them with a stick.