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John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
Sir James A:
--- Quote from: Sir William on 2013-07-10, 17:23:16 ---For one, you could hardly call yourself the best if you've gone largely unchallenged by worthy opponents- beating up on your students only proves you can beat them.
--- End quote ---
Shhhhhh, Charlie Andrews will hear you. :D
Sir William:
LOL @ the Andrews reference
Yea...you get me.
Ian:
Because John Clements is not saying he can beat everyone in the world in a sword fight like those stupid chi ball fools. He's not claiming that at all, no one in WMA is claiming they're the ones who can beat everyone else. It's about understanding a lost art, not about who can beat who at it. The whole point of HEMA/WMA is to figure out what the masters were teaching in the 14th/15th centuries and understand it. It's a quest for knowledge and the practical application of that knowledge. Fighting one another is how we begin to understand. It's the process by which we unlock the mysteries because it reveals how biomechanics play in and what works and what doesn't. Insisting that people fight each other to prove their prowess is misguided bravado that has little to do with the point of this particular martial art in the first place.
Sir William:
I see your approach to it all, but I don't know if I agree with you Sir Ian; from my POV, the point of any martial art was guided by one underlying principle, regardless of which style you choose to study- to impose your will on your opponent and win. HEMA/WMA, as you say, is to figure out what was taught, what was most effective- but the sole purpose of any of these arts was to best your opponent. Nowadays, we have the luxury of taking up martial arts for any number of reasons- physical fitness, to learn discipline, holistic balance, and/or to defend one's self, or to study a lost art just for the sake of it or purely for sport as it is with most of us here- or any combination you care to come up with; still doesn't take away the original purpose of said art. Also, I might add that the sword was made for but one purpose only- to kill. Axes, maces, hammers, bows, arrows, daggers, knives, quarterstaves- all of these sorts of weapons had other uses, domestic and otherwise; not so with the sword. That people have used it for other than what it was intended changes nothing. And from a sporting perspective, it is always a competition, is it not?
As far as proving one's self goes...since Mr. Clements has given the bird to pretty much anyone outside of his circle, I don't see why someone similarly skilled in another style (or even the same, but from outside said circle) couldn't issue a challenge and have it accepted. Naturally, he need not answer it- that's his choice. However, and this is just my POV but if you're gonna talk the talk, you should also be able to (and willing) to walk the walk.
Ian:
But Sir William, HEMA/WMA is not a developed martial art. It is a but a fraction of a once developed martial art. It's a martial art in it's infancy of rebirth. I would agree with you if we were talking about fully developed Eastern Martial Arts where the actual techniques themselves are known, but your proficiency at them is what differs. In HEMA/WMA, it is the very techniques that we are unsure of because no continuous line to the masters exists. Without knowing the techniques, it is difficult to apply the same standards of who is better than who.
Mr. Clements hasn't really given the bird to everyone outside of his circle. I would say he's surely given the bird to the SCA because of how he feels some people within the SCA misrepresent their sport as something historical, and I can't say I blame him there. He actually disagrees on only a few points here and there and on certain techniques within the HEMA/WMA community, most famously, the Krumphau. But he's not the villain everyone outside his circles make him out to be. I would argue that it is the very people who claim we should all work together in peace and harmony who are equally responsible for John Clements being pushed from the rest of the HEMA community.
I don't see anyone clamoring for other HEMA/WMA teachers to go fight people. It's just fun to pile on and hate the 'bad boy' of WMA. I see a lot of hypocrisy within WMA with regards to how ARMA is treated. People get mad at Clements for so vociferously defending his own opinions on techniques by doing the same about their own... And Clements isn't going around saying he can beat every other school in a sword fight, so why is the burden of proof to be laid upon his head? I don't see people yelling and screaming for Christian Tobler to go fight someone to prove what he teaches, or anyone else for that matter.
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