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John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
Thorsteinn:
JC has said more than once he is one of the best swordsmen on the planet, and that others don't count as Swordsmen because they do not meet his definition of the term, and has said that's why he turned down some challenges because he wasn't being challenged by "Real Swordsmen (tm)". As for Christian Tobler, if you challenged him and offered to pay for his travel and room & board then I bet he'd show up no problem. JC had that chance and blew off the folks at the last minute after initially agreeing to the deal.
So yeah... that's why I think say... Syr Gemini is a better swordsman, martial artist, and chivalrous man than JC ever will. Good example: When he got challenged very formally by a group to his north he went up there and took it up. Heck he even filmed it (see below). He beat the entire group and the head master 10 for 10 on their turf under their rules.
Gemini talks the talk, and walks the walk. He studied the masters and came to his own system that way. He teaches, he fights, he's gone into HEMA & SCA tourneys and won or placed well, and if you challenge him he'll kit up and say "Lets go". He's not alone in this attitude. I bet Jake Norwood, Paul Bellatrix, Axel Peterson, and more would & could show up JC in proving to be more than just words & dance moves.
http://youtu.be/f7nBMezkJgQ?t=4m13s
Sir Edward:
--- Quote from: Ian on 2013-07-10, 22:18:24 ---I don't see anyone clamoring for other HEMA/WMA teachers to go fight people. It's just fun to pile on and hate the 'bad boy' of WMA. I see a lot of hypocrisy within WMA with regards to how ARMA is treated. People get mad at Clements for so vociferously defending his own opinions on techniques by doing the same about their own... And Clements isn't going around saying he can beat every other school in a sword fight, so why is the burden of proof to be laid upon his head? I don't see people yelling and screaming for Christian Tobler to go fight someone to prove what he teaches, or anyone else for that matter.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Thorsteinn on 2013-07-11, 06:50:46 ---JC has said more than once he is one of the best swordsmen on the planet, and that others don't count as Swordsmen because they do not meet his definition of the term, and has said that's why he turned down some challenges because he wasn't being challenged by "Real Swordsmen (tm)". As for Christian Tobler, if you challenged him and offered to pay for his travel and room & board then I bet he'd show up no problem. JC had that chance and blew off the folks at the last minute after initially agreeing to the deal.
--- End quote ---
Interesting points here.
While I will agree that JC/ARMA probably does get heaped with an unfair amount of criticism, I still see the fault largely with JC/ARMA, as they have a long history of disparaging other WMA/HEMA practitioners and groups, not showing up for things they agreed to (especially if there was any sort of "honor match" or comparative process involved), self aggrandizing, and so on. When JC claimed to personally be the "rosetta stone" of historical sword fighting, I decided I can't really take him seriously anymore. It's a shame, because I know he's skilled and knowledgeable, but he's destroying his own credibility. He comes off as a complete narcissist.
Certainly, he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. I'm sure he could mop the floor with a lot of the community's instructors, because of his athleticism and how much time he spends training. But he's just one man, so if he and his group believe he's the only one who is "correct", they're limiting themselves unnecessarily.
Again, I don't hate JC/ARMA, I just think it's a shame that they've gone off in this isolationist direction, and there's so much they could have done to avoid that, or still could do to come back into the larger community.
Sir William:
You make a good point, Sir Ian- it is not yet a fully developed art...who is to say we know half of what we should? With that said, does he really possess the wherewithal to cast aspersions when the truth really isn't fully known? I'm no fan of the SCA or some of its denizens (present company excluded of course) but I'll use them as an example anyway. Speculation being what it is, who is to say that what they do has no basis in history? Its probably the closest thing to a tourney we're like to see this side of the pond...granted, there's a good bit of leeway that's allowed w/regard to being historically accurate, mostly for safety and inclusion reasons. I know there's a lot of period nazis who take offense to anyone whose garb or accoutrements don't match their level of snuff but the majority of players don't for various reasons. Yet, they indulge in armored combat on a much larger scale- as we all know, not every man on the field was a consummate swordsman, pikeman, archer or even knight, conscripts rarely are so who can honestly say whether or not how they go about it is totally inaccurate or not? None of us were there...you can quote texts and cite pictorial references but those aren't always set down by people who witnessed the events. I say take it w/a grain of salt when its necessary, or the whole shaker if it suits you- but none of us can say they truly know.
Sir Vander Linde:
I unfortunately don't have the time to read this whole thing at the moment but here is my two cents.
John is a nice guy and we share similar opinions about the SCA and other HMB groups. I have also seen people he has challenge walk away from it, and I have also seen him lose a number of fights. He receives a lot of hate because he defends his interpretations of martial science, and people don't like that it conflicts with their interpretations even though a majority have only looked at depictions with out reading the accompanying text. I have only ever disagreed with Clements once, and it was on use of sword and buckler. As for him acting knightly, well he never as far to my knowledge clamed to be.
Basically, he is either liked or hated, I have never met someone who held him in a neutral position, well maybe not never but very few.
my 2 cents.
Sir James A:
--- Quote from: Thorsteinn on 2013-07-11, 06:50:46 ---He studied the masters and came to his own system that way. He teaches, he fights, he's gone into HEMA & SCA tourneys and won or placed well
--- End quote ---
If he didn't win, and "placed well"... that means he lost to someone, at some point. Does that mean he has no credibility at all any more?
Would that be different from JC showing up to spar with someone, and losing? Would that one fight between JC and someone make or break his "career"?
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