Pointing for maille?

[Sir Matthew]

I can agree with everything stated so far. I don't wear much maille, doing a period where that was largely obsolete and relegated to periferal areas of battle, but many of these points hold true for plate and also my brigandine. Practice will make perfect with putting on the armor. IT WILL NOT COME OVERNIGHT. I can not stress that enough. When I first got my splinted legs, I would have fits getting them on and adjusted right. It took me ALOT of practice to get it down to where I was able to put them on and adjust them correctly to wear comfortably. Not wearing them much for the last year means then when I do now, it once again takes me some time to get them on and adjusted right. I can not don my peascod breast and back myself without immense difficulty due to it's design. If I do get it on myself, it is nearly impossible for me to adjust myself. This is just the way this armor is. Fortunately, the other armor wearing members of my reenacting unit understand because they all have similiar problems and we help each other out. Often we adjust and fix issues without being told, we can spot problems with each others armor before the wearer even figures out what the problem is  . I can easily get my breast and back off myself, though. My brigandine is a cinch to get into myself, and just as easy to get off. It took my some time to figure out how to wiggle into my gambeson myself, since I need to pre-tie it closed before putting it on as I ties closed on the sides and my arms/hands simply don't bend in a way that would allow me to tie it after donning. That minor flaw will be corrected in the next version I make, since I do not always have my lovely wife with me to act as my squire. It certainly does make it easier if you have assistance, but most issues can be overcome yourself, it's just a matter of figuring it out and practicing until it becomes routine. Working out will likely help with armor weight and tiring, but nothing can be a substitute for wearing the armor. The weight will tire you, but so will the way the armor moves on you and the way you move in it. This can only be overcome by practice wearing the armor. Remember, if your armor fits you correctly and you are wearing it correctly, you should be able to do most anything in armor you can do out of it, common sense applies here. Driving in armor may not work, although I can, as well as certain other modern activities which armor was never invinsioned for. As I've said before, I wear my armor regularly in the off season to stay used to it. I wear armor every weekend day for 3 months of the year and have done so for about 5 years now. Proper conditioning is MANDATORY or you will pay a high price in body wear. Wearing proper supportive and comfortable shoes will also greatly help reduce body fatigue. My freind Kyle learned this the hard way. Proper padding with a buff coat, arming jacket, gambeson or other under armor padding will help cushion weight and reduce fatigue. Also remember to keep hydrated and when not fighting or when you at a faire, slow down. Life in the past was a bit slower, when wearing armor remember it's not a race to get everywhere. Slow your walking pace and stride and you will reduce your fatigue level. Avoiding the sun will also help with heat issues, to a point. Last, when wearing armor you will get dirty. All I can tell you is to deal with it. I don't really care if I get dirty when in kit, dirt is CPH and that is my goal. You're kit is coming along very nicely Sir Uhlrich, stick with it and you'll be a fine example of a historical Knight.

[Joshua Santana]

I can agree with everything stated so far. I don't wear much maille, doing a period where that was largely obsolete and relegated to periferal areas of battle, but many of these points hold true for plate and also my brigandine. Practice will make perfect with putting on the armor. IT WILL NOT COME OVERNIGHT. I can not stress that enough.

I agree with Sir Matthew.

This is just the way this armor is. Fortunately, the other armor wearing members of my reenacting unit understand because they all have similiar problems and we help each other out. Often we adjust and fix issues without being told, we can spot problems with each others armor before the wearer even figures out what the problem is  . I can easily get my breast and back off myself, though. My brigandine is a cinch to get into myself, and just as easy to get off. It took my some time to figure out how to wiggle into my gambeson myself, since I need to pre-tie it closed before putting it on as I ties closed on the sides and my arms/hands simply don't bend in a way that would allow me to tie it after donning. That minor flaw will be corrected in the next version I make, since I do not always have my lovely wife with me to act as my squire. It certainly does make it easier if you have assistance, but most issues can be overcome yourself, it's just a matter of figuring it out and practicing until it becomes routine. Working out will likely help with armor weight and tiring, but nothing can be a substitute for wearing the armor. The weight will tire you, but so will the way the armor moves on you and the way you move in it. This can only be overcome by practice wearing the armor. Remember, if your armor fits you correctly and you are wearing it correctly, you should be able to do most anything in armor you can do out of it, common sense applies here. Driving in armor may not work, although I can, as well as certain other modern activities which armor was never invinsioned for. As I've said before, I wear my armor regularly in the off season to stay used to it. I wear armor every weekend day for 3 months of the year and have done so for about 5 years now. Proper conditioning is MANDATORY or you will pay a high price in body wear. Wearing proper supportive and comfortable shoes will also greatly help reduce body fatigue. My freind Kyle learned this the hard way. Proper padding with a buff coat, arming jacket, gambeson or other under armor padding will help cushion weight and reduce fatigue. Also remember to keep hydrated and when not fighting or when you at a faire, slow down. Life in the past was a bit slower, when wearing armor remember it's not a race to get everywhere. Slow your walking pace and stride and you will reduce your fatigue level. Avoiding the sun will also help with heat issues, to a point. Last, when wearing armor you will get dirty. All I can tell you is to deal with it. I don't really care if I get dirty when in kit, dirt is CPH and that is my goal. You're kit is coming along very nicely Sir Uhlrich, stick with it and you'll be a fine example of a historical Knight.

Yes, Sir Matthew speaks the truth here.  For me when I get my full 16th Century Kit, I will be training in and out of the Kit itself for physical conditioning and for training the body to move with the armor instead of against it.  Like workout regiments and diets, this will not work overnight, I will be certainly sore and nearly useless like an old dog but that won't stop me from continuing my training.  Practice makes perfect progress, I will also be practicing putting on and off the Kit, now I am thankful that the Kit itself is half-armor (just the helmet, arm harness, gauntlets, and Breast & Back Plates) which helps to a degree with the exception of the straps & buckles which require practice. 

This entire discussion on practicing wearing armor reminds me of how we Knights must practice our Chivalry and our Beliefs, we are not Knights nor are we chivalrous overnight.  It is a gradual process of practice, practice after success, practice after making a mistake (we are human) and practicing getting back to where you were before you made that mistake.  Nothing is ever easy, it would be easier to abandon Honor, Courtesy, Nobility or Courage when you are standing with the choice of sticking by your beliefs or by the Code or neglecting them in favor of mere pleasures that don't last in the long run.  We have got to keep on practicing our Chivalry and it is a lifelong practice with no end date. 

[Sir William]

This entire discussion on practicing wearing armor reminds me of how we Knights must practice our Chivalry and our Beliefs, we are not Knights nor are we chivalrous overnight.  It is a gradual process of practice, practice after success, practice after making a mistake (we are human) and practicing getting back to where you were before you made that mistake.  Nothing is ever easy, it would be easier to abandon Honor, Courtesy, Nobility or Courage when you are standing with the choice of sticking by your beliefs or by the Code or neglecting them in favor of mere pleasures that don't last in the long run.  We have got to keep on practicing our Chivalry and it is a lifelong practice with no end date. 

That was well said, Sir Joshua- well said indeed.  Nothing worth having or experiencing in this life will come easy; oh sure, some thing or other may come easily to you but by and far anything else worth having, achieving or experiencing will only be done so successfully by the desire to have it and the drive to make it happen.

Keep in mind that in the past, boys were taken, usually around the age of 7 or 8 to begin squiring for a knight- this consisted of but was not limited to: cleaning and polishing the knight's armor, waiting on his pleasure when he sat at meat or received guests, setting up his tent, his bedroll, saddling and unsaddling his horses, brushing their coats, picking out stones caught in their hooves- a glorified butler, if you will.  All this in addition to training in combat- learning swordplay, spearplay, horsemanship- and you had to be good, because not every squire became a knight.  Chances are, you would be blooded before you turned 16, if you proved yourself in battle you may get your spurs but you'd still serve your lord unless and until you decided to go on your own and be a knight-errant and find adventure where it would find you.  Life was hard, it was at times cut short rather brutally and in some ways more complex than our own as we live a life of comparative luxury- these boys and men would've slept in a barn, or on the floor or on a pallet depending on where they were; they were required to eat only after their knight had eaten, sleep only when allowed, but ready to wake at a moment's notice; lice was a commonplace thing, bathing was largely optional, a hot bath was reserved for the gentry, commoners made do with cold water, usually rivers or streams as they were to hand, general medicine was herbs, incantations and bleeding and the average life expectancy was roughly half of ours- it was a tough world to live in.  Whereas we all have running water, electricity, heat, the internet, we don't go hungry, we know no real hardship compared to them, we all have cars, access to money for the most part and while most of us are serious about our calling, it really is more of a hobby for us.  With that said- how into it are you?  Ask yourself that, and when you have your answer, you know what you have to do.

[Joshua Santana]

That was well said, Sir Joshua- well said indeed.  Nothing worth having or experiencing in this life will come easy; oh sure, some thing or other may come easily to you but by and far anything else worth having, achieving or experiencing will only be done so successfully by the desire to have it and the drive to make it happen.

Keep in mind that in the past, boys were taken, usually around the age of 7 or 8 to begin squiring for a knight- this consisted of but was not limited to: cleaning and polishing the knight's armor, waiting on his pleasure when he sat at meat or received guests, setting up his tent, his bedroll, saddling and unsaddling his horses, brushing their coats, picking out stones caught in their hooves- a glorified butler, if you will.  All this in addition to training in combat- learning swordplay, spearplay, horsemanship- and you had to be good, because not every squire became a knight.  Chances are, you would be blooded before you turned 16, if you proved yourself in battle you may get your spurs but you'd still serve your lord unless and until you decided to go on your own and be a knight-errant and find adventure where it would find you.  Life was hard, it was at times cut short rather brutally and in some ways more complex than our own as we live a life of comparative luxury- these boys and men would've slept in a barn, or on the floor or on a pallet depending on where they were; they were required to eat only after their knight had eaten, sleep only when allowed, but ready to wake at a moment's notice; lice was a commonplace thing, bathing was largely optional, a hot bath was reserved for the gentry, commoners made do with cold water, usually rivers or streams as they were to hand, general medicine was herbs, incantations and bleeding and the average life expectancy was roughly half of ours- it was a tough world to live in.  Whereas we all have running water, electricity, heat, the internet, we don't go hungry, we know no real hardship compared to them, we all have cars, access to money for the most part and while most of us are serious about our calling, it really is more of a hobby for us.  With that said- how into it are you?  Ask yourself that, and when you have your answer, you know what you have to do.

Yes I agree, we also must take into consideration how physically active they were.  I mean they walked, ran, and walked longer than we are today.  We sit most of the time during the course of the day (sitting in front of the computer typing on this forum, driving to work, sitting down on the couch) where as back in the Middle Ages and Renaissance you didn't have that sitting luxury (except within a university where you had to sit).  With this in mind, can we imitate as best we can the physical hardiness they had, nope, I don't think so.  I believe this is true with any warrior culture, physical fitness and hardiness is a must.  But we got to keep it in true perspective with our daily schedule. Combining working out with armor on (or maile on), with sword practice, weaponry practice (spear, poleaxe, or other weapons) and doing the same outside of armor and do not forget running, jogging and throwing stones (large stones) as weight training, that should be more than enough to get started becoming physically fit.     

[Sir William]

Lifting a heavy hauberk and putting it on and shrugging back out of it, rinse and repeat.  You'll work muscles you may not have known you had and you'll feel the strain but the burn is GOOD.

[Sir James A]

They did have chairs and they did sit back in the middle ages. Knights would ride places on horseback rather than in a car, but still, seated. Royalty and scholars probably sat for a long time compared to the unwashed masses. But as a general rule, if people wanted food, they had to get it themselves; catch it, cook it, and/or harvest it. If they wanted to go somewhere, they had to walk. The men were required to attend church on sundays and practice archery. They were a lot more self sufficient and self-mobile than most people are today. Knights battled as their profession; it was not only in their best interest to be in good shape and a good fighter, but literally, their life depended upon it.

You can pick up some simple wrist weights and/or ankle weights that strap on your arms and legs, and wear those around the house too. Easier to put on / take off, and it will help with conditioning / cardio, as long as you aren't sitting the whole time. Lots of little things can make a difference. You're not likely to find anyone local that will tailor mail, but we'll help guide you through it if you're willing to do it yourself. In the end, it's just rings and rivets - you can't "break" it, everything can be undone or fixed.

[Joshua Santana]

Lifting a heavy hauberk and putting it on and shrugging back out of it, rinse and repeat.  You'll work muscles you may not have known you had and you'll feel the strain but the burn is GOOD.

 

They did have chairs and they did sit back in the middle ages. Knights would ride places on horseback rather than in a car, but still, seated. Royalty and scholars probably sat for a long time compared to the unwashed masses. But as a general rule, if people wanted food, they had to get it themselves; catch it, cook it, and/or harvest it. If they wanted to go somewhere, they had to walk. The men were required to attend church on sundays and practice archery. They were a lot more self sufficient and self-mobile than most people are today. Knights battled as their profession; it was not only in their best interest to be in good shape and a good fighter, but literally, their life depended upon it.

You can pick up some simple wrist weights and/or ankle weights that strap on your arms and legs, and wear those around the house too. Easier to put on / take off, and it will help with conditioning / cardio, as long as you aren't sitting the whole time. Lots of little things can make a difference. You're not likely to find anyone local that will tailor mail, but we'll help guide you through it if you're willing to do it yourself. In the end, it's just rings and rivets - you can't "break" it, everything can be undone or fixed.

Right, although they did have seats yet their level of physicality was higher than ours, because they would wear their armor for longer periods (in war or Tourneys)and they would train when they were not busied with political or estate matters.

[Sir Ulrich]

I started lifting weights again so I can put up with the weight of the maille. I may just add a bit of a taper to the bottom of my maille to make it easier to slip in and out of. As I said the sleeves flapping around make it rather uncomfortable to wear which is why they need tapering. Oddly my gambeson breathed a lot better than I thought it would at the faire then again it wasnt nearly as hot a day as it normally is. Thats the thing I love about maille is it breaths a lot better than leather or plate armor, just gotta cut the excess weight and I think i'd be fine in maille. Tailoring it will be a bitch though, I have no clue what I'd be doing to be honest.

[Joshua Santana]

I started lifting weights again so I can put up with the weight of the maille. I may just add a bit of a taper to the bottom of my maille to make it easier to slip in and out of. As I said the sleeves flapping around make it rather uncomfortable to wear which is why they need tapering. Oddly my gambeson breathed a lot better than I thought it would at the faire then again it wasnt nearly as hot a day as it normally is. Thats the thing I love about maille is it breaths a lot better than leather or plate armor, just gotta cut the excess weight and I think i'd be fine in maille. Tailoring it will be a bitch though, I have no clue what I'd be doing to be honest.

Seek help would be the better choice Sir Ulrich.  It is a good thing that both mail and gambeson breathe well, that helps with humidity.  In regards to my Kit on humid days, I would wear a Half-Harness to reduce heat inside the plate armor.  On normal days, a full harness would be sufficient, or full harness on a humid (either for conditioning or demonstrating).  But the undergarments have to breathe or you would be baked inside your armor.   

[Sir William]

They did have chairs and they did sit back in the middle ages. Knights would ride places on horseback rather than in a car, but still, seated.

Not to pick, but there's a marked difference between riding horseback and riding in a car...last time I rode I was sweating rather profusely- a combination of a fairly warm day (80s temp) and the fact that it is a bit of a workout, especially in the core (unless you ride like a sack of potatoes lol) and the inner thighs.

That's why they had to tie down anything that couldn't keep up on the horse- sacks of grain and prisoners included. 

[Ian]

Not to pick, but there's a marked difference between riding horseback and riding in a car...last time I rode I was sweating rather profusely- a combination of a fairly warm day (80s temp) and the fact that it is a bit of a workout, especially in the core (unless you ride like a sack of potatoes lol) and the inner thighs.

When you ride infrequently, yes this is an issue.  If you ride with regularity though, the muscles become quite accustomed and it's really not much a strain at all.  But yes, until they make air conditioned horses, you will sweat

[Thorsteinn]

...  But yes, until they make air conditioned horses, you will sweat

Gallop.

 

[Joshua Santana]

Not to pick, but there's a marked difference between riding horseback and riding in a car...last time I rode I was sweating rather profusely- a combination of a fairly warm day (80s temp) and the fact that it is a bit of a workout, especially in the core (unless you ride like a sack of potatoes lol) and the inner thighs.

That's why they had to tie down anything that couldn't keep up on the horse- sacks of grain and prisoners included.

Very true.

When you ride infrequently, yes this is an issue.  If you ride with regularity though, the muscles become quite accustomed and it's really not much a strain at all.  But yes, until they make air conditioned horses, you will sweat

Indeed, I remember my earlier years when I visited my grandparents in Puerto Rico, my grandfather loved horses, he had a friend that owned three, I had the fortunate chance of riding one (only the horse was guided by the owner) and I even had a trip to Colorado Springs, to the Garden of the Gods, horse rode for a good time.  It took me a bit of a while to get used to it and to teach the horse not to stray away from the path, but I got the hang of it.  So that is my experience with horse riding. 

[Sir James A]

They did have chairs and they did sit back in the middle ages. Knights would ride places on horseback rather than in a car, but still, seated.

Not to pick, but there's a marked difference between riding horseback and riding in a car...last time I rode I was sweating rather profusely- a combination of a fairly warm day (80s temp) and the fact that it is a bit of a workout, especially in the core (unless you ride like a sack of potatoes lol) and the inner thighs.

That's why they had to tie down anything that couldn't keep up on the horse- sacks of grain and prisoners included. 

Oh, absolutely, I agree with you. I was going towards most of the surviving cased greaves we have, being for people with very slim calves. We're not sure if that was because those muscles were under-developed from riding so much (not walking), or if they were somehow strong but slim. The cardio exercise you'd get from walking would be more than riding. Not to say they had it easy; just that it was easier riding than walking and that their muscles wouldn't be as developed as they would be if they walked everywhere. Like we joked at VARF - it's not so hard to be in full harness when the horse is moving the weight around.

[Joshua Santana]

Oh, absolutely, I agree with you. I was going towards most of the surviving cased greaves we have, being for people with very slim calves. We're not sure if that was because those muscles were under-developed from riding so much (not walking), or if they were somehow strong but slim. The cardio exercise you'd get from walking would be more than riding. Not to say they had it easy; just that it was easier riding than walking and that their muscles wouldn't be as developed as they would be if they walked everywhere. Like we joked at VARF - it's not so hard to be in full harness when the horse is moving the weight around.

That is why the right greaves make a huge difference.