Gotta get this off my chest.

[Sir William]

My only point was, we really don't know how it went down.  Sure, we have treatises and manuals, but to me they are 'stylized' versions of what actually goes into said art- I think the fechtbuchs we have access to are great for learning the techniques- but you can learn forms all day and still not be 'ready' for an encounter.

Some excellent points have been made during this discussion and no one's flying off the handle or getting overly assertive because they feel their particular choice was slighted...man I love that.

[Sir Edward]

Sir William, there's a lot of truth to what you said.

Several of the manuscripts describe the techniques not as  "this is the only way you must do things", but rather "here are some things you can do that will work". They're meant to serve as examples, and through them you can learn to fight.

[Sir William]

That's how I look at it...great building blocks but I find that the true masters of their craft got that way not by necessarily adhering to strict tenets (other than don't be the one getting killed) but by applying what they've learned with what they've encountered in real situations and incorporating all of that as part of their repertoire.

I liken it to the sport of boxing...most all boxers, amateur and professional are taught the same principles, but as we all know, they all experience differing degrees of success based on natural talent, aptitude, skills/athleticism as well as training.  The training is essential to learning the basics, but it is up to the individual fighter to incorporate them and build upon what they've learned.  There used to a term that got bandied about quite a bit in the late 90s early 00s - 'continuous improvement process' - a somewhat spurious notion in the business world, but certainly applicable here.

[Sir James A]

In SCA combat to wrap-shot someone has little fear; you can almost bind your opponent's shield/weapon simply by proximity, and the primary thing you leave yourself open to as a counter is them throwing a wrap at you, and little else. Historically, it would probably turn to ringen/wrestling/throw (as most fechtbuchs show); in SCA context, you can't be thrown, you can't grab weapons/arms... it's an inherent "safety net" to close in and wrap.

The primary "problem" with wrap shots is that while it makes a great sound with rattan for a "kill", it seems a less efficient idea with a real sword. The generation of force on a wrap shot is considerably less than a "well planted, well struck" blow like a forward-stepping zornhau. More (proper) power, bigger wound, faster kill(s). The up side is many people seem to have worn less armor on their back/rear, so getting a good strike with less or no armor is less important since there could be less "resistance" to getting at flesh. However, you'd have to be *quick* at getting in to strike and kill - quick enough that your opponent doesn't grapple you or bind your weapon.

SCA has some similarity to late-period tournaments where they used wooden clubs instead of swords, and somewhat similar to the "counted blows" competitions. It has it's ties to being historically based, and I've found it to be, in general, pretty good about not claiming it's 100% historical. I'd have no problem with SCA publications being used as a supporting source for the sake of discussion, as long as it wasn't in an attempt to prove that "historically they did this, because the SCA does, and the SCA is a historical society, so....".

I'm surprised (or maybe not) to hear that a moderator was the one who said that. You have to be careful in other people's sandboxes, sometimes they get snippy and seem to have no "people skills". I had a post deleted and a warning issued by a moderator on another forum because I posted that Medieval Fight Book (history channel show) was available on YouTube for people who didn't or couldn't see it. I didn't even post a link to it. First time I ever had any communication with the moderators.

"It's copyrighted material. Distributing copyrighted material in any manner is illegal. I'm not here to teach you copyright laws, however, and so trust that you will look elsewhere for information if you are interested in the subject."

What really pissed me off even more was that other people posted about Youtube after my post was pulled, and nothing happened to their posts. I was "special". I rarely go there any more, but I rarely posted there and there wasn't much interesting anyway save for a few random threads ... so no loss for me.

Sounds like you might want to just ignore that forum, if that's an option?

[Allan Senefelder]

Right now all I see in the American HEMA is a bunch of people arguing over how to do a simulated unarmoured duel with matched longsword simulators and no Hand-to-Hand moves.

I can't attest to any other WMA events as the only one I attended was the various Chivalric Weekend events held northeast of me and this certainly wasn't the case at that particular series of events. The last year it was held there were something like 15-20 armoured challange bouts, one instructor got his ankle broken practicing Ott's wrestling and there were classes on both armoured and un armoured combat and a variety of weapons and people bouting all over the place when not taking classes as well as an archery tournament. Things must be very different at other WMA gatherings.

[Sir Edward]

Right now all I see in the American HEMA is a bunch of people arguing over how to do a simulated unarmoured duel with matched longsword simulators and no Hand-to-Hand moves.

I can't attest to any other WMA events as the only one I attended was the various Chivalric Weekend events held northeast of me and this certainly wasn't the case at that particular series of events. The last year it was held there were something like 15-20 armoured challange bouts, one instructor got his ankle broken practicing Ott's wrestling and there were classes on both armoured and un armoured combat and a variety of weapons and people bouting all over the place when not taking classes as well as an archery tournament. Things must be very different at other WMA gatherings.

WMAW is a lot like that as well. Classes cover a wide range of disciplines, even ranging into knife throwing, pugilism, and bartitsu. This past WMAW, there was a harnessfechten (armored fighting) class, and an armored deed of arms based around the manuscripts. It involved grappling, half-swording, thrusting to the gaps, and other things you'd expect from historical armored combat. But I think most importantly, the event was full of camaraderie and mutual respect.

In our classes at VAF, we frequently use unmatched weapons, except when we're drilling or bouting with specific techniques that we're focusing on.

It's easy to make generalizations about the groups you're not hanging out with.

[Sir Brian]

WMAW is a lot like that as well. Classes cover a wide range of disciplines, even ranging into knife throwing, pugilism, and bartitsu. This past WMAW, there was a harnessfechten (armored fighting) class, and an armored deed of arms based around the manuscripts. It involved grappling, half-swording, thrusting to the gaps, and other things you'd expect from historical armored combat. But I think most importantly, the event was full of camaraderie and mutual respect.

In our classes at VAF, we frequently use unmatched weapons, except when we're drilling or bouting with specific techniques that we're focusing on.

It's easy to make generalizations about the groups you're not hanging out with.

Much like at my WMA group MASHS when we have our ‘Free Play’ Sundays, we’ll try all kinds of different variations of weapon matchups with our duels. Even during our regular classes if we don’t have any novice students the intermediate and advanced students will just have an extended session of duels, or maybe a bear pit. At any of our duels grappling is definitely on the table and with some of the MASHS members it is a foregone conclusion they will try to grapple with you. Although we learn and drill IAW the Lichtenauer traditions we are not overly into the academics but learn it to be better and more effective swordsmen/swordswomen. 

[Sir William]

That sounds like my kind of group, Sir Brian.  Nothing wrong with academics, but the applied sciences were always more my thing. 

[Sir Brian]

I really think you would enjoy our group Sir William and our Sunday session in Annapolis is reasonably close to your area.
Google maps shows its approximately 30 minutes away.




This past Sunday one of our advanced students Michael Fuchs told me and another intermediate student about a drill he watched on youtube from a WMA group in Spain where they were dueling solely from the bind and making various attempts to wind against their opponent. It turned out to be a really interesting drill and a good warm up. We then explored with some alternative plays against your opponent after you initially come to the bind and whether they were hard or soft in the bind, sort of a Fühlen drill, then we eventually worked that into doing an Ausreissen which was really cool. 

Ausreissen = The closest translation I could find is 'SHOVE'; (Das Bill could probably tell us what plate from the historical texts it is from. )
Essentially it is when both combatants are in vom tag and each cuts with a zornhau and comes to the bind,
You lift your hilt up while dropping the point and simultaneously take another slope pace while forcefully ‘shoving’ your opponent’s blade away from you and out of harm’s way. You will end up well within grappling range since your lead leg will be directly behind the knee of their lead leg and your pommel will already be in line for a pommel strike. There is also the high probability that you will be able to clip your opponent with your left elbow as you ‘shove’ their blade away. Michael Fuchs performed it flawlessly several times against me and the other student. I often shove too hard to have a clean pommel strike but I would have my blade free for a one handed hack to the back of my opponent’s head (simulated hack of course! )

[Sir William]

Sir Brian, no worries...you'll be seeing me at MASHS sometime this year.  My introductory course starts in March; I want to get that under my belt before I start learning anything else. 

[Sir Edward]

Sir Brian, no worries...you'll be seeing me at MASHS sometime this year.  My introductory course starts in March; I want to get that under my belt before I start learning anything else. 

Awesome. Don't let them beat you up too much before you start hitting back. Heh

[Sir Brian]

Sir Brian, no worries...you'll be seeing me at MASHS sometime this year.  My introductory course starts in March; I want to get that under my belt before I start learning anything else. 

Excellent! Oh and what introductory course is are you taking?

Awesome. Don't let them beat you up too much before you start hitting back. Heh

Hey I promise we'll make sure he has a good working knowledge of the basics before we toss him into the ring...that and maybe a good chest protector!

[Sir William]

I'm taking Introduction to Historical Sword at VARF...I do not know if you recall, but my lovely wife prepaid the class as a birthday gift!  I was going to take the January class, but my right hand and wrist have been somewhat lacking in strength and mobility (I really torqued my wrist during our day of play after Sir James' and Sir Nathan's knightings).  Now, I'm pretty much ready to go!  I'm eagerly looking forward to it, and to hanging out with you MASHS guys.  I've been a loner for far too long, it'll be good to be among likeminded men.

[Sir Edward]

I assume you mean VAF, not VARF.

Do you know who your instructor will be?

[Sir Brian]

I'm taking Introduction to Historical Sword at VARF...I do not know if you recall, but my lovely wife prepaid the class as a birthday gift!  I was going to take the January class, but my right hand and wrist have been somewhat lacking in strength and mobility (I really torqued my wrist during our day of play after Sir James' and Sir Nathan's knightings).  Now, I'm pretty much ready to go!  I'm eagerly looking forward to it, and to hanging out with you MASHS guys.  I've been a loner for far too long, it'll be good to be among likeminded men.

Oh yes that’s right! Very good! The technique of those VAF folks is absolutely IMMPECCABLE.
(those other VARF guys are just a little scary!)