Gotta get this off my chest.

[Thorsteinn]

Sometimes dealing with the HEMA Alliance is painful & frustrating. Someone ask's a general fighting question, you suggest a non-HEMA or <GASP!> SCA-related source and they jump down your throat.

Sometimes it's enough to make me want to challenge the whole lot of them to a single combat, anything-goes, submission fight.

Better now.

-Ivan

[Sir William]

So, now that you feel better...can you give us a little background as to what happened?  What was the question, and the answer you gave?

I think that every martial org is going to have their elitists who think what they practice is the epitome of whatever art is the topic at hand...you just smile and nod, and move on to someone with just a wee bit more of a basis in reality (and gentility) than THAT guy.  Gotta love it, though.

I have been made to understand that there is a dissonance between HEMA and SCA...am I correct in my assumption that HEMA does not consider the SCA to be an historically-based style of medieval combat?  I wouldn't either...but that doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned from them.

[SirNathanQ]

Well, I don't mean to be elitist here, but SCA simply ISN'T a period style of combat.
There is a good bit to be taken away from fighting SCA, but the fact that it discounts armour, doen't allow for attacks to the shins, doesn't take into account edge alignment and it's overdependence on wrap shots or use of SCA tailored gaurds would make it less realistic IMO than WMA.

However, there is still probably much that it does teach one, and I would put my eggs in the SCA basket before any other when looking for a battle-ready group due to it's practice of large scale battles, something that other groups simply don't do.

I myself do WMA, and plan to do SCA someday.

And please do tell what happened. I deal with this BS in Eastern martial arts all the time 

[Thorsteinn]

Here is the thread: http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1795

I was jumped on for suggesting that 'The Armoured Rose" by Tobi Beck (SCA Fighter and Army MP) or Gemini Asonte might have something good to say on the subject of tiny women being run over by large men in the fighting ring.

I was asked by the moderators to not mention the SCA lest it was more relevant than HEMA and given that there are no HEMA books for women on fighting I felt that I was right on target (notice that they never bitch when I mention SCA armour experience when talking of HEMA level body protection).

And yes there are some HEMA folks who feel that they have nothing to learn from the SCA. My old HEMA instructor & my old roommate felt the same thing as the two guys in the group never brought their A game to any match with the rest of the class. The reasons were two fold: #1) We tend to hit hard in our A games, #2) the rest of the academy was not up to what we would bring and would get themselves hurt.

[Sir William]

As I have never experienced a true large-scale medieval battle firsthand (none of us born within the last three centuries can lay claim to that) I couldn't actually say what it was like on the field, but I have come to think that style may have played a part in the initial forays but once the battle was fully underway, it was an 'anything that takes your opponent down' type of mentality.  Who is to say that wrap shots weren't in some way performed?  Or that in the heat of battle, when your adrenal glands are secreting so much of the hormone you could lift a fully armored and barded warhorse barehanded, armor might actually fail on the first blow, especially if it was cheap and/or poorly made?

I think there are definite lessons to pick up with regard to the grand melee that the SCA is known for...

[Sir William]

Ivan, where does it say that you may not bring up the SCA in topic?  I thought his response to be somewhat 'huffy'...but I was also confused by your second post.  What is Rule #1 of the Fighting Ring?

[Thorsteinn]

I did once show both my old roommate & my old instructor my A game. They both whined and blamed their loss on other reasons than I was better than them.

This also happened to Gemini Asonte when he went to compete against the Western Circle of Swordsmen and defeated the entire school at least once, and the head if the school in that mans chosen form 10 out of 10 passes. The man apparently made excuses towards Gemini about why Gemini beat him. At CombatCon Gemini won one tourney there against other WMA/HEMA folks. This win was barely acknowledged by anyone who felt the SCA deficient.

@Sir William: Rule#1 of the Fighting Ring is "Don't be a Dick".

[Sir William]

Ha!  And I was going to say that mod seemed like he was being a dick, but every board's got at least one, right?

Of us all on here, I'm probably the one who is closest to being such...at least, to hear my wife tell it.  Well, no, she says I'm an asshole...which I think is worse AND better.  lol

[Ian]

I think the best lesson to be had from SCA simulated combat that translates to other styles of simulated combat is the ability to deal with getting hit and not get flustered.  Also, quick decision making while being struck is not something you can train for without actually doing it.  These skills translate to ANY martial activity.  The fighter's mindset is something that can indeed be learned through training for SCA heavy, and will pay off in HEMA.  A person who's never been hit before will have a steep learning curve when picking up a martial sport for the first time.  An SCA veteran already has that advantage when transitioning to WMA/HEMA, but beyond that, I cannot say the SCA has much historical validity when it comes to actual technique in battle or single combat because it's simply not based on historical treatise and manuals.

Who is to say that wrap shots weren't in some way performed? 

While it's true we cannot actually rule things like this out, the mere fact that techniques like this are not described anywhere in the treatises on historical warfare and judicial combat are pretty good indicators.  We can suppose a lot of things, but without evidence we can't claim it's a valid historical technique.  /$0.02

It's not a shot at the SCA to say that their sport is not historical in technique.  The HEMA / WMA community takes it's historical sourcing very seriously and I think that's why the SCA thing is a sore topic for a lot of them, because the SCA acknowledges that they 'bend' the rules on history a bit to enjoy their game more, which is perfectly fine, but the HEMA / WMA community chooses to strictly adhere to historical technique, and can't be blamed for following through on this.

[Thorsteinn]

but the HEMA / WMA community chooses to strictly adhere to historical technique, and can't be blamed for following through on this.

On this I throw the flag as I hardly ever see them doing, or talking of doing, any of the historic formats that we have clear evidence of like fights at the barrier, holmganga, pancration, mixed weapons, and unarmed combat. Right now all I see in the American HEMA is a bunch of people arguing over how to do a simulated unarmoured duel with matched longsword simulators and no Hand-to-Hand moves.

Many of the fights I have seen have bad form and bad follow through. Both Battle of the Nations and the Laurin Tourney are better than the HEMA Alliance for this right now.

Frankly the HEMA community needs to be able to say what it is, and not what it is not before it can be taken seriously. Right now it's arrogance does not match its renown or prowess.

[Ian]

but the HEMA / WMA community chooses to strictly adhere to historical technique, and can't be blamed for following through on this.

On this I throw the flag as I hardly ever see them doing, or talking of doing, any of the historic formats that we have clear evidence of like fights at the barrier, holmganga, pancration, mixed weapons, and unarmed combat. Right now all I see in the American HEMA is a bunch of people arguing over how to do a simulated unarmoured duel with matched longsword simulators and no Hand-to-Hand moves.

Many of the fights I have seen have bad form and bad follow through. Both Battle of the Nations and the Laurin Tourney are better than the HEMA Alliance for this right now.

Frankly the HEMA community needs to be able to say what it is, and not what it is not before it can be taken seriously. Right now it's arrogance does not match its renown or prowess.

What specific organizations are you looking at?  The HEMA alliance is made up of many many HEMA organizations and specific schools.  Your accusation can be said of any large-scale loosely affiliated group of individual organizations, which is what the HEMA alliance really is.  The AEMMA guys in Toronto are pretty legit when it comes to historical accuracy from what I've seen.  ARMA (/dodge thrown pies) is also pretty legit when it comes to adherence to historical technique.

Judging HEMA and WMA from the HEMA alliance forums is like judging the SCA as a whole from the AA (which yes, although is not supposed to be an SCA specific site, let's face reality here for a second).  I will agree with you whole-heartedly though that the HEMA Alliance really has no sense of itself and is not as coherent an organization as it could be.

My first impression of the SCA was going to my local shire's fighter practice.  This is going to sound bad, but it was a group of out of shape gentlemen that were completely winded and exhausted after a couple swings of a stick, with only a small group of people wearing anything remotely resembling an attempt at historically accurate armor or kit.  Before I get the whole 'it's very exhausting', I've done my fair share of full contact martial arts and good ol' boxing, and I know what full out physical exertion over a long period of time feels like while getting kicked or punched in the face, and these guys were not in any shape to be doing a martial activity.  I cannot judge the whole SCA based on this experience and decided to do a lot of research on my own.  I came to appreciate what the SCA does, and in the end wished I had a more serious group of SCA here locally so I could play too. 

HEMA is the same way, there are schools and study groups that would rather sit around and debate and act all elitist and then would get soundly trounced by anyone who took the sport seriously.  There are other schools who strictly try to recreate what techniques would have been used in historical times but completely miss the point of a martial activity and leave out what I consider vital to any martial art, and that is strength, fighting intent, and real athleticism.  Then there are schools that really get it, and train at speed, with intent, respect for what this is (a LETHAL sport), and it's practitioners are athletes with a warrior's mindset.  The HEMA alliance is made up of a shotgun smattering of all this and everything in between.  I just wish it was easy to find a school that meets your expectations and level of open-mindedness.

The awesome thing about the SCA is it has folks that get it!  Like Sir Gemini for example, that man is an athlete with a warrior's mindset, and I think his attitude and mindset are sorely needed in a lot of HEMA organizations.  Shame on the elitists in the alliance for not recognizing his potential contributions in this aspect.

[Sir Edward]

Who is to say that wrap shots weren't in some way performed? 

While it's true we cannot actually rule things like this out, the mere fact that techniques like this are not described anywhere in the treatises on historical warfare and judicial combat are pretty good indicators.  We can suppose a lot of things, but without evidence we can't claim it's a valid historical technique.  /$0.02

Probably the closest thing in the manuscripts would be the various Sturtzhau plays. The thing is, there's some variety and/or disagreement on what a perfect sturtzhau really is. More often than not, I think it's interpreted as a sort of plunging strike. The sword hand turns over, but the sword still leads with the point, rather than being an inverted cut, though it can still result in a back-edge cut.

Anyway, just an extra thought on the subject.

[Thorsteinn]

Sir Ian I cannot find any meaningful disagreement for anything in your last post there. You humble me.

I too seek to raise up what the SCA does in it's martial activities and I plan to make it happen by speaking my mind & fighting like I would have us Heavy's fight. I also am on the Cynaguan Guard so I have an impetus to look my best. Prince Richard is going to stop his "Chateau de Camville Schola Weekend's" in Placerville, CA while on the throne but they are his effort to bring up the awesomeness of what we are doing.

[Ian]

Sir Ian I cannot find any meaningful disagreement for anything in your last post there. You humble me.

I too seek to raise up what the SCA does in it's martial activities and I plan to make it happen by speaking my mind & fighting like I would have us Heavy's fight. I also am on the Cynaguan Guard so I have an impetus to look my best. Prince Richard is going to stop his "Chateau de Camville Schola Weekend's" in Placerville, CA while on the throne but they are his effort to bring up the awesomeness of what we are doing.

I think in a very roundabout way we wound up on the same page there. 

[SirNathanQ]

Yeah, you have the gems and the lemons in both sides. You have the HEMA unskilled elitists, and the SCA picklebarrel-clad couch potatoes. Then you have the John Clements and the Bill Grandys, and the Sir Geminis and the (insert favorite SCA fighter here)s.

You see something similar to a wrap shot in the I:33 manual. Although all of my expeience in combat facimilies indicates that it's to be seldom thrown, as it makes the arm a wondeful target.