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Author Topic: Help on Gothic Harness!  (Read 112255 times)

Sir James A

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #60 on: 2011-05-20, 15:41:18 »
I recommend these for any arming points:
http://historicenterprises.com/arming-doublet-point-reinforces-leather-p-1298.html?cPath=101_135

At $1 each, you can't beat the price. They also don't need to be attached to the arming clothes, so you just untie them and toss it in the washing machine. The 4 holes spread the load on the fabric out to reduce the chance of tearing the fabric. It basically points from the outside in, then from the inside back out (I can get pics, I think my description makes no sense) and the 4 holes make the arming points themselves stay in place on the arming clothes, which means you don't have to sew the leather at all.

Those look pretty good. I wonder how well the Revival cotte will take them. It might be OK with the grommets being the only part that's attached, since that's how I did the voiders (lots of small grommets), but since there's only 4 taking all the weight of the legs for each pointing, I'm still cautious. The linen they used really isn't that strong. I'd have no fear at all on the pourpoint. :)

Sorry, I should have clarified about the points. I have the revival pourpoint that I will have my legs pointed to. The points with the leather tabs are for the shoulders, arms, a mail skirt, and the voiders; it will be on my MRL gambeson (since it's cheap enough to test with before mutilating a good one). I have an idea with the mail skirt (and possibly voiders) to not need lots of small points; if it works, I'll post a how-to thread about it.
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Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #61 on: 2011-05-20, 22:38:09 »
Sir James and Sir Edward:  Allow me to summarize your advice.  You both are suggesting that I should purchase an arming cotte with arming points and leather pointers to reduce wear and tear on the garment and a hint of advice to go with the pourpoint.

Does this mean that I will have to purchase this?



and this?




And another thing to consider, supposed if I got the Italian Harness, would these help at all?   Or should I get this?



or this?

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #62 on: 2011-05-21, 02:15:21 »

I like the revival arming cotte a lot. But here's the two main issues to consider with it:  First the strength of the linen as I outlined earlier. As long as you don't abuse it, it should hold up. The other is that they mount the points for the legs on it very low. Both sets of legs I have (Merc Tailor and GDFB) need the points to be higher, so I had to attach new ones.

The revival pourpoint is nice and strong, and has the points at a nicer height. I haven't started using it yet (just got it after the last time I armored up), but wearing it over the arming cotte should work fine. It won't stretch as much and so it should do a little better of a job pulling the weight up off your legs.

When we start doing armored combat in class again next week, I want to try using them together. We'll see how it goes.
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Sir James A

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #63 on: 2011-05-21, 02:35:17 »
You can make do with just a gambeson/arming coat and point the legs to it, but I've tried it, and found it much less comfortable. Since the arming coat sits away from your body and moves when you move, the legs are much more "floppy and free" just attached to the gambeson; attaching it to the inside of the gambeson helps, but still isn't optimal.

What seems to be the ideal for a white harness ("full plate") suit is to have the pourpoint underneath. It's a very close-fitted vest (as you posted the picture of), and the legs point to it - if your legs point in two places (front and sides) it works MUCH better. I've worn the legs to my harness a number of times trying this out. I've found that the pourpoint works much better underneath the arming coat, as it stays closer to your body and can be worn more snugly.  The straps on the leg armor that go around your legs and knees really don't do much except for keep the armor from gapping away from your body during movement; the weight is all supported from the points at the top, and as Sir Edward said, the location of the points is very important.

Over top of the pourpoint, you have your arming coat. This is pointed for whatever else needed; spaulders, voiders, arms, etc. Gothic armor tends to be attached with points, and Italian armor tends to be attached more by straps; the pauldrons will strap to the gorget and will buckle around the arms; the arms themselves will be closed upper and lower and buckled inside the elbow, if fitted properly they won't move around even without pointing. In that case, the arming coat is there simply for padding (and possibly voiders if you use any), as the pourpoint is not padded at all.

If you haven't seen this (http://www.selohaar.org/essays/arming.htm), it explains things very well, and is based off of period documentation.
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Sir Wolf

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #64 on: 2011-05-21, 05:31:08 »
bah!

i wear a linen porpoint to hold up my hosen. then i wear my arming jacket over that. everything points to it. (you can see the white peeking out the front under teh red arming jacket.


http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/31.jpg


http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/11.jpg


the icefalcons look too bulky and not body formed enough i think


























ok weird, the first image isn't showing up, but it shows up when i try to fix the msg. can everyone see 2 pictures?
« Last Edit: 2011-05-21, 05:34:14 by Sir Wolf »

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #65 on: 2011-05-21, 11:43:45 »
I use the revival clothing pourpoint as well for my leg armor (Thanks again Sir Andrew for suggesting it to me a couple years ago! ;) ) and I agree with Sir Edward that it is very durable however since I use straps for my leg armor I stitched some leather squares as reinforcements before riveting the straps to the pourpoint. I also use the pourpoint to attach my padded leggings. Believe me this method is far more comfortable than using an arming belt with straps.  :)


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Sir Rodney

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #66 on: 2011-05-21, 13:50:57 »
I fought in the typical SCA leg harness (belt & straps) for 10 years until I figured out that a pourpoint is THE way to go.  I will never go back!
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Sir Wolf

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #68 on: 2011-05-21, 18:47:25 »
Sir Wolf,

I see the gentleman to the right points his joined hose to his arming coat.  Are your hose similarly pointed, or do you point them to a pourpoint?  I can't quite tell from the photograph.  You are portraying the 15th century here, right?  As I'm in the mid-14th century my hose should be separate if lower class and joined if I'm hoity-toity, correct?
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Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #69 on: 2011-05-21, 19:31:44 »
Sir Edward: Thanks for the warning!

Sir James:  I have seen that essay and I will like to say this:

Everyone is in agreement of the pourpoint.  Hence I will order a Pourpoint from Revival Clothing.

Sir Wolf:  Thanks for the pictures!

It also appears that Merc Tailor's might have second chance with me ordering armor from them.  Given that the pourpoint is highly recommended and the 15/16th Century Legs (from Merc Tailor's) does have leather straps and liner holes. 

But this still doesn't prevent me from ordering (with the right monies) two 15th Century Italian Harness!  One from Merc Tailor's and from Ice Falcon Armory! (Credit goes to Sir Wolf for the ingenious idea)
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Sir Wolf

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #70 on: 2011-05-21, 21:19:36 »
Sir Wolf,

I see the gentleman to the right points his joined hose to his arming coat.  Are your hose similarly pointed, or do you point them to a pourpoint?  I can't quite tell from the photograph.  You are portraying the 15th century here, right?  As I'm in the mid-14th century my hose should be separate if lower class and joined if I'm hoity-toity, correct?


actually no. those points u see at the waist are for his armoured legs. his hosen for some reason unknown to me stay up without a pourpoint hehehe.  my hosen are attached to a pourpoint.

here are pictures of hosen attached to the doublet:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2005/MTT/full/63.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2009/MTA/Lara/Full/2009_Jamestown_MTA%20029.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTT/full/IMGP1996.jpg

attached to a doublet on a HOT day.
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/Michaelmas/full/IMGP2358.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/Michaelmas/full/IMGP2359.jpg

a picture of me on the left. i had already pointed my hosen to my pourpoint but put my doublet back on cause it was freezing cold and i hadn't put on my arming jacket:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0227.jpg

legs attached to an arming doublet:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2003/mtt2003/full/Image55.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2003/mtt2003/full/Image54.jpg
how to dress a knight.
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0332.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0333.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0334.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0335.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0336.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0337.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0338.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0339.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0340.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0341.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0342.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0343.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0344.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0345.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0346.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0347.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0348.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2007/MTA/Full/IMG_0349.jpg

arming up a man at arms:
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1558.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1559.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1562.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1565.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1567.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1568.jpg
http://www.replications.com/greys/Image%20Gallery/2004/Hastings/full/IMG_1569.jpg

Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #71 on: 2011-05-22, 10:50:52 »
Thank you Sir Wolf for the doublet examples and armoring pictures!

Did you get your doublet from Historic Enterprises perchance?


Now supposed if I get Revival's Gambeson in conjunction with the Pourpoint, would that be good enough?

And I hate to say this but Historic Enterprises is the enemy, Brian Price's wife Gwen is head of that company.  I heard this from both instructors at SIGMA and they recommended Revival as the alternative.
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Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #72 on: 2011-05-22, 14:02:13 »
Another thing I just remembered, I found the armet by armor and castings which is the armet helmet that tom leoni bought.  This helps with merc tailor italian harness prototype. 

Any vendors that sell doublets besides revival?
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Sir James A

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #73 on: 2011-05-22, 15:50:51 »
And I hate to say this but Historic Enterprises is the enemy, Brian Price's wife Gwen is head of that company.  I heard this from both instructors at SIGMA and they recommended Revival as the alternative.

I have to question that statement a bit, as the registration info for the sites are in complete conflict.

Historic Enterprises is registered to Jeffrey Hedgecock, who produces a number of the items on the site. Brian Price is in Texas, the Schola Saint George, of which he was previous president is headquartered there, ChivalryBookshelf.com is registered to him there, as is Chronique.com, both well known Brian Price ventures - however, Revival.us is also registered to Brian Price, and also hosted with the same provider as Chronique and ChivalryBookshelf.

Beyond that, Historic Enterprises and the other 3 sites mentioned aren't hosted by the same hosting provider, which makes it seem far less likely to me; at least with my experience, people who own multiple companies/sites host them all with the same company.

I think you (or they) may have it backwards, in that Revival.us is associated with Brian Price, and Historic Enterprises is the preferred alternative?
« Last Edit: 2011-05-22, 15:51:30 by James Anderson III »
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Sir Wolf

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #74 on: 2011-05-22, 16:12:37 »
gwen is married to jeff hedgecock.

and no, all of our doublets and hosen we made ourselves
« Last Edit: 2011-05-22, 16:13:11 by Sir Wolf »