Help on Gothic Harness!

[Joshua Santana]

I need some help on what type of Gothic Harness to choose.

As you all know, I am ordering my harness from Mercenary Tailors (Thanks for the positive reviews!).

Here is a prototype design of my harness



this is the helmet



this is the bevor



these are the shoulder pieces



this is the besegues (steel rivets on mine)



this is the breastplate



this is the arm harness



this is the guantlets



this is the leg harness



these are the greaves

the idea for this harness came form this picture



the problem is this, what would be better: to go with the plate?

or to go with the placard and brigandine or breast and back plate combo (w/the placard)?  or even change the espauliers ot the pualdrons with haute pieces?
(the brigandine or ring maile cotte if i intend on ordering one will be from mercenary tailors)

here is a visual sketch to make things easier



the placard



the brigandine or ring maile cotte



the breast plate and back plate



and the aforesaid pauldrons

What do you think brethren?

[Joshua Santana]

i apologize for not putting up this picture

and here is an example of what i mean by placard/brigandine design



I hope this helps

[Sir Matthew]

I like the placard/brig design. It's different and interesting.

[Sir James A]

Almost every bit of armor you posted the pictures of is more of the italian style. High gothic had LOTS of flutes and punchwork and edging, while "regular" (I can't remember the specific term) gothic had some fluting and maybe a bit of punchwork.

This picture (http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/Images/PastProj%20Images/English/Fitzherbert/images/FITZ%20COMPLETE%2001_jpg.jpg) is quite interesting. The pauldron/spaulders are distinctly italian, as is the cuirass. The arms and cuisse both have fluting in the gothic style, and the bevor/sallet are gothic as well. Oddly enough, even the wildest of gothic armor had smooth greaves, so those are fine for either.

There's a few decent pictures of the more common gothic style armor here (http://swords.museumreplicas.com/search?SearchTerm=german+gothic+armor). There's also a set of 3-piece point-tied arms on the site somewhere. However, Allan at MercTailor will make custom fit armor for you - the armor in the link above is a one-size-fits-you-or-too-bad, and the articulation on it is much more decorative than functional (I have the cuirass, pauldrons, arms and legs).

I would probably skip on the besagews. The rounded ones seem, to me, more early period, and the later period gothic ones would have a good bit of fluted detail to them. My understanding is they aren't the most comfortable of items to wear and may bind up on you if you try to move your arms too much. They are kind of an "accessory" that you could add to the harness once you get the other bits assembled and interacting well.

Hope that helps.

[Sir William]

I think the pictures he used as examples were more to show the areas covered, rather than the armor design.  He's going with Allan @ MT, his wares are more utilitarian and functional- beautiful in their simplicity, but I think he hearks more from the gothic influence than Italian.  Perhaps he or Joshua'll weigh in and correct me if need be.

[Joshua Santana]

Sir James: I thank you for your input on this.  Yes Ia m aware that the look is more Italian than Gothic.  What I am trying to get a standard look that will closely resemble Gothic as possible.  I did message Allan on Facebook asking him if he and his team were capable of making a Gothic Suit this is his response:

"in the past we would take on single custom commisions to allow us to focus on our primary job of filling catalog orders. With the collapse of the economy we have been forced to change how we build and switch to a build to order ( Just In Time ) model ( over two years now ) which leaves us no meaningfull time to do this. All time goes to production ( we haven't had atime for R&D for new itmes in nearly a year and a half leaving 3/4 of a dozen new items sitting half done ). I'd like to be opptimistic and say that we'll be able to return to our previous manufacturing style but at this point I can't even beging to guess when/if that will be. Thanks very much for thinking of us however, its very much appreciated."

To clarify on a couple of points, the arm and leg harness is their 15th Century Arms and 15th/16th Century legs.  Also the idea also came from these pictures on myarmory.com





If I have to change the suit from Gothic to Italian style or even 16th century Maximilian style.  I would be fine, just means I would have to find other venues to make that possible.

If there are other Gothic Suits out there for consideration.  I know only a couple and I would like to see if these would satisfy the standard High Gothic Style

(SCA)
http://armstreet.com/store/armor/full-gothic-knight-armor-suit-SCA

http://www.bestarmour.com/armour_1.html
(KA 1.1)

http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1470-p-573.html?cPath=101_133

http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1480-p-1126.html?cPath=101_133

http://www.medievalrepro.com/Armour.htm
(the German Gothic Armour)

I am aware that these are expensive, but i am working of means of income and payment method if I have no choice.

Sir William: You are most correct and that is what I am trying to achieve with the Merc Tailor harness and I do harken to the Gothic influence as the characteristic flutting, rolling and edging is not there.

[Sir Edward]

I agree on the fluting. I wonder if Allan will add fluting to his standard pieces? I know he tries to avoid custom work (as noted above), but it might be worth asking. He's done some really minor custom work for us before, like adding spring-pins to my GDFB helmet.

I would definitely go with larger pauldrons too, rather than the simple spaulders. The spaulders were much more common earlier, such as in the 14th. By the time you get into the high gothic armors, larger pauldrons with fluting would have been common.

BTW, I edited the previous post to put the word "SCA" before a link so that the tooltip wouldn't break the URL.

[Joshua Santana]

Sir Edward:  Thank you for the small adjustment!  I will try on asking Allan to see if he is willing to do the flutting on his standard pieces (only five, the pauldrons, the breastplate and backplate, arm harness and leg harness).  But if that isn't possible, I might do two things

1.  Find another armory that will have a good gothic suit (i am thinking of historic enterprises ro back to old illusion armoring)

2.  Or change the harness to a 16th Century/Maximilian Design by using Merc Tailors 16th Century Armor pieces and the helmet from either Therion Arms or Illusion Armoring (for either the Maximilian Armet or the Close Helm or Armet that Illusion has) if that helps with the "no flutting possible" scenario.

But I agree that i need to change the besegues to the pauldrons.  I thank you brethren for the suggestions.

But which pauldron though



this one?



or this one?

[Joshua Santana]

A thought just came to me!

Since Sir James has mentioned my original harness prototype is more Italian than High Gothic, why not go with the Italian look!

Everything from the Gorget, Breast and Back plates, Arm Harness, Leg Harness and Greaves I can order from Merc Tailor
(a good thing)

The helmet is not an issue, there is a good Italian Armet that Illusion Armoring makes that is good looking

http://p7.hostingprod.com/@illusionarmoring.com/1450.html

http://p7.hostingprod.com/@illusionarmoring.com/CFMHItalianArmet.html

Also, on a personal thought tangent, the Italian look closely resembles the Armor worn by Martin the Warrior Mouse (Redwall Novel Series)







Yes I am aware that this is a mouse dressed in armor, but that a draw as to why Redwall is a good book to read and a classic for kids!

If this helps, please let me know!

[Sir Edward]

You know, some of the Italian armors do look quite gorgeous. That's not a bad way to go. My biggest advice is of course to do what makes you happy, since you'll be the one wearing it. But factoring in cost and availability is always important too.

I've seen a similar armet up close, though I don't know who made it. Tom Leoni (VAF and Order of the Seven Hearts) has one, and is slowly building up an Italian harness. What he has so far looks great. I really like it.

[Sir Rodney]

I've had fun watching your thought process and harness develop, thank you for sharing!  I do not know enough about the period in question to assist you with the harness you desire, but I can comment on makers.  I'm glad you have chosen Allan at The Mercenaries Tailor for some of your kit.  My experience with him was wonderful and I've never read a contrary word on this forum, the Armour Archive or myArmoury.  My breastplate and small besegues are perfect and were delivered a day earlier than promised!

My comments regarding The Mercenaries Tailor

I will offer you a word of caution regarding Illusion Armoring.  Let me begin by saying I've never had a problem with the quality of their products.  My greaves and sabatons turned out very well and are built to withstand SCA rattan combat.  As a matter of fact, my greaves were dented for the first time recently after several years of usage.  It took a 7.5 foot polearm swing through a 180 degree arc to dent them and I don't even have a bruise to show for it!  (Yes, that is an illegal SCA target area and an illegal swing, but that's another matter entirely.  )  Their wait times are what concerns me as they can be quite lengthy and often fail to meet quoted target dates.  I encourage you to do your own research on AA and myA.

Illusion Armoring Sabatons, a mini-review

Good luck and keep us posted!

[Sir Rodney]

I just ran across this post on myArmoury which dovetails into my previous commentary.  Scroll down to Guy H.'s post from May 9th (yesterday).

[Sir Robert]

For my two cents: I agree with Sir Edward:

"I would definitely go with larger pauldrons
Plate armor that covers the shoulders.
too, rather than the simple spaulders
Plate armor that covers the shoulders.
. The spaulders were much more common earlier, such as in the 14th. By the time you get into the high gothic armors, larger pauldrons with fluting would have been common."

The rest of your choices are very nice but the original pauldrons you selected are very plain and older looking. You need something grand, and while I like the second set of the more elaborate you selected I think the first is more with your style.

[Joshua Santana]

I thank you all for your helpful advice and words of caution!

To everyone's relief, after careful consideration, I have then decided that to settle this headache of choosing what period.

It is German Gothic, the design (drum roll please...)

The German, High Gothic Placard/Brigandine Design.

This to me is the only thing that comes close to the flutting design that High Gothic Harnesses have.

So, here we go again starting from the helmet



the bevor



the pauldrons



the placard breastplate



the brigandine armor (also from Merc Tailor's)



the arm harness (15th Century arms)



the gauntlets



the leg harness (the 15/16th Century Legs)



and the greaves (two plate greaves)




Once again, I couldn't have made this decision without your guidance and experience.

[Sir William]

We look forward to seeing you in it, Sir Joshua...until then, let the drooling commence!  Nice setup by the way...I'd been eyeing his cased/fitted greaves for some time now.  Thinking of letting the splinted bracers/greaves I currently wear to my sister...if she can wear them, that is.