Help on Gothic Harness!

[Sir Wolf]

Joshua, what is your spending limit. I am getting what style you like etc but i have some other links etc i want you to look at. but let me know your cap and i'll put together some info for you

[Joshua Santana]

I am seeking to spend around $3,000 to $5,000 or even $2,000 minimum.  This leaves with the choices of Merc's Tailors or Ice Falcon Armory after comparing the full harness prices from both armories.  (And Thank You Sir Wolf!  I hugely appreciate you're help)

[Thorsteinn]

Go with Duke Andreas Icefalke.

(Yes this is a vote for a fellow member of the SCA war unit Tribe RotMahne)

[Joshua Santana]

Post Update:  Last night was my first time training in the German Medieval Martial Arts via SIGMA (Staten Island German Martial Arts).  It was a blast and had some good feedback from both instructors in terms of what armories to purchase my harness.

They gave approval of Ice Falcon Armory, which is a good thing for me and for RauttSkegg!

I also have checked with Andre Sinou in terms of customizations for armor.  I received his email confirming it and now have the potential to order a full German Gothic Suit (with flutting!) or a full 15th Century Italian Harness w/an Armet Helmet!

Now the real and (hopefully) final question is this:  Which would be more appropriate since I am training in German Medieval Martial Arts, a Full 15th Century German Gothic Harness or a Full 15th Century Italian/Milanese Harness?

Visual Examples should help a bit.


Late 15th Century High German Gothic Harness


15th Century Milanese Harness

[SirNathanQ]

Since the most comprehensive sources seem to come from Germany, I'd go with the Gothic Myself.

Also, we're seeing lots of shiney bits, but I hope to God that you're assembling or already have appropriate things to wear under it.   

 Even the best-made plate is gonna suck without a decent arming doublet.

[Sir William]

Well said, Sir Nathan...and too true.

[Sir James A]

Since the most comprehensive sources seem to come from Germany, I'd go with the Gothic Myself.

Also, we're seeing lots of shiney bits, but I hope to God that you're assembling or already have appropriate things to wear under it.   

 Even the best-made plate is gonna suck without a decent arming doublet.

Indeed, and the measurements for the plate armor should be done with the arming clothes on, or it won't fit properly.

Gothic tends to be more mobile, Italian tends to have better coverage (as a percentage) and thus weighs a bit more. It's very much personal preference, and remember, you don't have to only own one.

Flos Duellatorum by Liberi was in early 15th century, and Gladiatoria (sp?) by Vaddi was in late 15th century, and both were Italian. They have longsword, polearm, dagger and unarmed bits in them. I definitely don't know much about differences between them, or about the details of the content, but german and italian swordsmanship seems very similar on the surface. I know Italian style moved more towards what is now fencing somewhere around or after the 16th century, if that helps any?

[Sir Edward]

Oh yes, the Italian and German combat systems have much more in common than not. What you learn in one directly applies to the other. And in a way, you can consider them to just be different flavors of the same art.

[SirNathanQ]

Hey, Don't misinterpret me, there are quite a few Italian sources, and Sir Edward is spot-on in their similarities.
But German sources outnumber the Italian for longsword.
You also don't just have to go with one style strictly. German and Italy share a border, remember? I'm sure that there were plenty of folks sporting elements of both styles.

[Sir Wolf]

shame all of the English armour is gone. from what i gather the style was a lot like Milanese export but had hard fluting. it was different than both German and Italian but had similarities to it. i think there are some churches in England where the style can be seen. Robert Macpherson showed me a reference once when i was in his shop picking up some armour with a friend. was really cool

[Joshua Santana]

Thank you everyone!

I am aware that the German and Italian Medieval Martial Arts are similar with little differences. 

I myself am leaning towards the 15th Century Italian Harness because of my personal preference for tad bit heavy armor (including tad bit heavy swords!)  Also that the Italian Harness bears a huge resemblance to the armor of Martin the Warrior Mouse, one of my childhood heroes.  And I feel that a harness or even a sword must bear symbolic or significant importance as a reminder of what we believe in and what we fight for. Or even bear a symbolic meaning of what values we embody or are striving for (symbolic).  I find myself leaning more towards the Italian not just for the aforementioned reason but every time I see an Armet Helmet, I see what Honor was represented in the 15th Century.  I cannot name it, but I feel in my heart that is what I should go for.  Because it may be a good example of how a harness style can be a symbolic representation of Chivalry.  The same thing can be said concerning the type of longsword. 

But I will have a talk with my teachers at SIGMA and get their approvals on which one.

Sir Nathan:  I am only changing pieces of armor to get the most historically accurate harness as possible.  But when I order my full harness, I will post pictures showing the individual pieces so that you brethren and Das Bill can scrutinize for accuracy at your pleasure  
Also, I am getting an Arming doublet or Arming Cotte from either Ice Falcon or Revival Clothing.  I am getting those first before the actual harness measurements are made.

[Sir James A]

shame all of the English armour is gone. from what i gather the style was a lot like Milanese export but had hard fluting. it was different than both German and Italian but had similarities to it. i think there are some churches in England where the style can be seen. Robert Macpherson showed me a reference once when i was in his shop picking up some armour with a friend. was really cool

There's a few effigies and brasses on it, but no period pieces survive that I've seen. This is a great picture of a lot of them:

http://warsoftheroses.devhub.com/img/upload/englisharmour1415-1475.jpg

I can't remember who, but someone had a thread on AA about having a book about it. Never came to production, AFAIK.

I am getting an Arming doublet or Arming Cotte from either Ice Falcon or Revival Clothing.  I am getting those first before the actual harness measurements are made.

(Mr Smithers voice) Exxxxcellent.

[Sir Edward]

I am getting an Arming doublet or Arming Cotte from either Ice Falcon or Revival Clothing.  I am getting those first before the actual harness measurements are made.

(Mr Smithers voice) Exxxxcellent.

Excellent indeed. I haven't seen the Ice Falcon one up close. The Revival one is very nice, but if you need to add arming points, make sure you stitch them well. And you might need to add leather reinforcement if there are any areas where the armor rubs on it. The linen they use is a little soft and wears-through pretty easily. Their pourpoint on the other hand is very tough in comparison.

[Sir James A]

I am getting an Arming doublet or Arming Cotte from either Ice Falcon or Revival Clothing.  I am getting those first before the actual harness measurements are made.

(Mr Smithers voice) Exxxxcellent.

Excellent indeed. I haven't seen the Ice Falcon one up close. The Revival one is very nice, but if you need to add arming points, make sure you stitch them well. And you might need to add leather reinforcement if there are any areas where the armor rubs on it. The linen they use is a little soft and wears-through pretty easily. Their pourpoint on the other hand is very tough in comparison.

Sir Edward, I have the IceFalcon one if you want to have a look at it.

I recommend these for any arming points:
http://historicenterprises.com/arming-doublet-point-reinforces-leather-p-1298.html?cPath=101_135

At $1 each, you can't beat the price. They also don't need to be attached to the arming clothes, so you just untie them and toss it in the washing machine. The 4 holes spread the load on the fabric out to reduce the chance of tearing the fabric. It basically points from the outside in, then from the inside back out (I can get pics, I think my description makes no sense) and the 4 holes make the arming points themselves stay in place on the arming clothes, which means you don't have to sew the leather at all.

I have them for all the arming points for my 14th century kit, which will be put to the test in the next month or two (as the mail skirt is backordered until June/July).

[Sir Edward]

I recommend these for any arming points:
http://historicenterprises.com/arming-doublet-point-reinforces-leather-p-1298.html?cPath=101_135

At $1 each, you can't beat the price. They also don't need to be attached to the arming clothes, so you just untie them and toss it in the washing machine. The 4 holes spread the load on the fabric out to reduce the chance of tearing the fabric. It basically points from the outside in, then from the inside back out (I can get pics, I think my description makes no sense) and the 4 holes make the arming points themselves stay in place on the arming clothes, which means you don't have to sew the leather at all.

Those look pretty good. I wonder how well the Revival cotte will take them. It might be OK with the grommets being the only part that's attached, since that's how I did the voiders (lots of small grommets), but since there's only 4 taking all the weight of the legs for each pointing, I'm still cautious. The linen they used really isn't that strong. I'd have no fear at all on the pourpoint.