"It wasn't the reward that mattered or the recognition you might harvest. It was your depth of commitment, your quality of service, the product of your devotion -- these were the things that counted in a life. When you gave purely, the honor came in the giving, and that was honor enough."
                -- Scott O'Grady

Author Topic: A Knight and Love  (Read 5300 times)

Naythan

  • Naythan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,698
  • I am Steel breaker!
A Knight and Love
« on: 2014-02-20, 04:54:57 »
Very much of chivalry includes being very kind to women. In many story's and romanticized paintings knights are usually involved with a damsel of some sort.
If a knight does not have a lady or does not even know love. Will he truly be able to be a knight? In his community or just upholding the knightly code? It just seems to be something that is hand In hand.
It's a sketchy question.
Nathan Phillip Max
Page of the Order
"Theough si ambulavero in valle umbrae mortis, non timebo mala,..."

Sir Patrick

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,647
  • Nex pro inhonesto, Deus pro totus.
    • The Order of the Marshal
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #1 on: 2014-02-20, 13:11:14 »
Yes he is still a knight. Courtesy is a knightly virtue, being in love is not.  Much of what is described in art and poetry is courtly love, which is not a pure, knightly virtue by any means as it typically involves an adulterous relationship where one or both parties are married to another. For example, Guinevere and Lancelot had a courtly love. Here's a link to more info:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtly_love
Gules, a chevron argent between three cinquefoils ermine.
"Better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand as a lamb."
Knight, Order of the Marshal

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,335
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #2 on: 2014-02-20, 14:36:03 »

Let's also not forget all of the celibate orders of knights, such as the Templars. ;)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Douglas

  • Artificer of Stuff and Things
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 815
  • In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram.
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #3 on: 2014-02-20, 16:59:04 »
Phew! I'm in the clear then. Maybe I should become a Templar. ;)

Courtly love is certainly an...odd concept, if I understand it correctly. In theory, wasn't it basically the idea that a knight would love and pine after a lady he knew he could never have, usually because she/he/both were already married? It was considered a purer form of love or something like that.

In practice, however, I'm sure it wasn't quite that "innocent". All of those illegitimate children have to come from somewhere....
Per pale azure and argent, an eagle displayed per pale argent and sable, armed and langued or.

So a Norman, a Saxon, and a Viking walk into England....

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,729
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #4 on: 2014-02-20, 17:57:44 »
In practice, however, I'm sure it wasn't quite that "innocent". All of those illegitimate children have to come from somewhere....

In practice, however, I'm sure it wasn't quite that "innocent". All of those illegitimate children have to come from somewhere....

Well certainly, then again the flower of chivalry in those days idolized the Arthurian legends where a mere lad is given ‘supreme executive power because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at him’  ;)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Mike W.

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #5 on: 2014-02-20, 19:47:08 »
As I recently stated in another post, my opinion of chivalry (in its purest and ahistorical sense) is not some rigorous code with various rules and exceptions, but rather one simple rule: Love others. Or if you're a religious type: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." And loving yourself doesn't mean narcissistic, arrogant love, but a nurturing, caring, and disciplined love necessary to make ourselves better so that we may better serve others.

Romantic love is something that we can become blessed with in our lives, but it is no way a requirement for being a good person. Now mind you all of this is from an ahistorical perspective. Sadly, I am not entirely familiar with the historical rules and rituals of romantic and courtly love.
D’azur à trois fasces d’argent, et au chef gueule chargé de trois étoiles d’or.

"The first duty of a man is the seeking after and the investigation of truth." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

SirNathanQ

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,742
  • "Nobiscum Deus" "Libertas ad omnes civitates"
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #6 on: 2014-02-20, 20:18:53 »
The resident Teutonic Knight and single guy takes a moment to confirm that a lady isn't NEEDED to be a knight, just a nice bonus!  ;)
The thing is, you usually get the damsels after you start acting knightly. Few things the ladies like more than non-douchey confidence.  :)
"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect." -Carl Von Clausewitz
"He is truly a fearless knight and secure on every side, for his soul is protected by the armor of faith just as his body is protected by armor of steel." -Saint Bernard of Clairvoux

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #7 on: 2014-02-20, 20:24:46 »
"Moistened bint" - I've not heard that term in years, but it is a favorite of mine.  lol

In any case, the art of courtly love really started in the Angevin era, per Wikipedia, in the ducal and princely courts of Aquitaine, Provence, Champagne, ducal Burgundy and the Norman Kingdom of Sicily at the end of the eleventh century. In essence, courtly love was an experience between erotic desire and spiritual attainment that now seems contradictory as "a love at once illicit and morally elevating, passionate and disciplined, humiliating and exalting, human and transcendent".

The whole point of chivalry (from a historical standpoint) was to institute a set of rules and regulations so that those of the knightly orders would have something besides maiming and killing as their joie de vivre.  It was to make natural born killers (and in a lot of cases, rapists, thieves, usurers, outright murderers even) into something like normal human beings; it was better than doing nothing at all I suppose.  What wilburnicus suggests as his definition of chivalry should not be confused with what chivalry was  back then- and love had little to do with it.

Courtly love should not be confused with what is shared between a man and wife; while it is true much of what a man and woman do behind closed doors may seem similar, it isn't always the case.  Not to mention, with courtly love, there was no guarantee that said love would ever be consummated (although it was, and often as history has shown us).

Sir Nathan, you are a consummate gentleman and a scholar. 
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.”

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,037
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #8 on: 2014-02-20, 20:28:38 »
Courtly love is certainly an...odd concept, if I understand it correctly. In theory, wasn't it basically the idea that a knight would love and pine after a lady he knew he could never have, usually because she/he/both were already married? It was considered a purer form of love or something like that.

Yep. The name escapes me, but I remember someone who was married and had "courtly love" with a married woman. He hurt his finger at tournament and wrote to her about it. She said not good enough. He cut off his finger and sent it to her.

I don't plan to be *that* knightly. :)

I believe part of the intent of "courtly" love followed "courting" - the process men go through when trying to win a woman's love. As Sir William said, I also don't think it was ever particularly meant to be consumated, though it certainly did happen in some instances.
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #9 on: 2014-02-20, 21:34:26 »
Lets not forget how the table cracked.
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

Mike W.

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #10 on: 2014-02-20, 21:40:12 »


Yep. The name escapes me, but I remember someone who was married and had "courtly love" with a married woman. He hurt his finger at tournament and wrote to her about it. She said not good enough. He cut off his finger and sent it to her.

I don't plan to be *that* knightly. :)

I believe part of the intent of "courtly" love followed "courting" - the process men go through when trying to win a woman's love. As Sir William said, I also don't think it was ever particularly meant to be consumated, though it certainly did happen in some instances.

Box of chocolates? F*** that, I'm sending her a box of body parts!
« Last Edit: 2014-02-20, 21:41:18 by wilburnicus »
D’azur à trois fasces d’argent, et au chef gueule chargé de trois étoiles d’or.

"The first duty of a man is the seeking after and the investigation of truth." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #11 on: 2014-02-20, 21:54:57 »
Sir James you speak of Sir Ulrich Von Lichtenstein of Gelderland. You know, the person Sir William from Knight's Tale impersonates.
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

Naythan

  • Naythan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,698
  • I am Steel breaker!
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #12 on: 2014-02-20, 22:34:51 »
Well it seems I'll become a Templar. When my family questions me being kit in relationship ill just tell them because I'm a Templar.

Makes me think of Ironclad. He was still chivalrous towards the lady but he didn't want any sexual relations.
In the end love and chivalry is just a misconception then isn't it?
It's all good feed back, Sir Patrick really nailed it first thing. As did sir William.

As I recently stated in another post, my opinion of chivalry (in its purest and ahistorical sense) is not some rigorous code with various rules and exceptions, but rather one simple rule: Love others. Or if you're a religious type: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." And loving yourself doesn't mean narcissistic, arrogant love, but a nurturing, caring, and disciplined love necessary to make ourselves better so that we may better serve others.

Romantic love is something that we can become blessed with in our lives, but it is no way a requirement for being a good person. Now mind you all of this is from an ahistorical perspective. Sadly, I am not entirely familiar with the historical rules and rituals of romantic and courtly love.

That seems more along the lines of compassion wilburnicus. Which is still an important part of chivalry.
Nathan Phillip Max
Page of the Order
"Theough si ambulavero in valle umbrae mortis, non timebo mala,..."

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,037
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #13 on: 2014-02-20, 22:59:26 »
Sir James you speak of Sir Ulrich Von Lichtenstein of Gelderland. You know, the person Sir William from Knight's Tale impersonates.

Aha! That sounds right. I kept thinking Marshal, but I knew it wasn't Marshal, and knew it was from an old Mike Loades joust show that mentions Marshal - and he does indeed mention Ulrich too. Well done!
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: A Knight and Love
« Reply #14 on: 2014-02-20, 23:28:09 »


Yep. The name escapes me, but I remember someone who was married and had "courtly love" with a married woman. He hurt his finger at tournament and wrote to her about it. She said not good enough. He cut off his finger and sent it to her.

I don't plan to be *that* knightly. :)

I believe part of the intent of "courtly" love followed "courting" - the process men go through when trying to win a woman's love. As Sir William said, I also don't think it was ever particularly meant to be consumated, though it certainly did happen in some instances.

Box of chocolates? F*** that, I'm sending her a box of body parts!

Hey, everyones doing it, Sir Ulrich Von Lichtenstein, Vincent van Gogh...
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max