"Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense".
                -- Winston Churchill

Author Topic: On the Krumphau  (Read 38894 times)

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #45 on: 2012-09-19, 15:35:01 »
Of course we can parry - if we are doing it properly.  (think the counter to the counter to the Zwerchhau, that is, parry and duplieren)  :D

Oh, you mean the John Clements Krumphau. :)

Wait! We still have the same problem! Are we going to 'parry' = English or Parieren = German or Parare = Italian or Parer = French!  :P
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #46 on: 2012-09-19, 18:19:35 »

All of the above? :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #47 on: 2012-09-19, 18:46:22 »
I honestly prefer to use the offhanded Perrier when fighting longsword vs longsword. I find it especially useful against a French Spring attack.
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Jessica Finley

  • New Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • New Member
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #48 on: 2012-09-19, 19:22:31 »
Of course we can parry - if we are doing it properly.  (think the counter to the counter to the Zwerchhau, that is, parry and duplieren)  :D

Oh, you mean the John Clements Krumphau. :)

YES!  Exactly that.  LOL

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #49 on: 2012-09-19, 19:33:30 »
I honestly prefer to use the offhanded Perrier when fighting longsword vs longsword. I find it especially useful against a French Spring attack.

lol, that put a wonderful image in my head. Here, let me fight you one-handed with my longsword, while enjoying a refreshing beverage with the other hand. :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #50 on: 2012-09-19, 23:02:19 »
For what it's worth, after consideration, study, watching the videos over, and also reading the discussion on the JC Krump here , I am for the most part convinced that what they're doing shouldn't be called a Krumphau.  I still think it's an incredibly viable martial technique, and I'm still not a fan of the 'standard' krump either.  I like what JC is doing, but I will concede, it's probably not a krump.  The arguments and rationale are just too much of a stretch when compared to the source material.  The standard krump does fit the source material, but I'm still not a true believer of it working when someone doesn't just blindly thrust forward and completely doesn't notice you stepping off line.
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #51 on: 2012-09-20, 03:35:16 »
Well, as with any other cut in the system, it'll have its advantages and disadvantages depending on what the other guy is doing. I think in the bouting I've seen/done, more often than not people are using it when the other guy isn't watching his distance, or is asleep in guard (it breaks Ochs), or as a feint to draw the guy out of Ochs, or in deflecting an unterhau. As a counter to a thrust, it's just one option. Admittedly I'm more likely to do something else against a simple thrust, unless it's a high thrust from Ochs, which I don't think people have done to me very often at all.

But I think something to consider also is that when someone is throwing a thrust, it doesn't have the same sort of lateral momentum that a full cut would have. It's hard to turn that into a cut with any sort of power if the guy moves. It's easier to redirect the thrust. To me I don't think the offline step is just about trying to avoid the thrust, it's also about getting around the other guy's sword and striking an opening.

As with anything, it won't work all the time and for all situations.

And also, it may not work with your personal style very well, and you may have a preference for other specific tactics. I just try to caution people against discounting something that may be useful in some contexts, especially since you can easily fall into a smaller repertoire, and then be completely hosed when you fight someone who does things differently than you're used to. And considering that the period masters considered it to be one of the five master-cuts (and it really is just a basic cut according to the texts), it's worth working with it.

You know, it occurs to me that we'll both be at DoK. We can break out the trainers and work through some ideas.
« Last Edit: 2012-09-20, 03:36:10 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Jessica Finley

  • New Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • New Member
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #52 on: 2012-09-20, 04:34:56 »
Wish I could make DOK.  I'd love to sit in on this training session!  :)

I love this stuff.

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #53 on: 2012-09-20, 11:26:13 »
Wish I could make DOK.  I'd love to sit in on this training session!  :)

I love this stuff.

I'd love to see those 12 armored combat techniques too!
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #54 on: 2012-09-20, 11:48:10 »
The krumphau was our primary focus @ class last night. Larry wanted us (Matt, Josh and I) to drill by using the Krumphau in more of a parry repost, two tempo action and we drilled four different secondary attacks after executing a Krumphau. Most of what we drilled coincides with what I’ve been applying anyways since I prefer to use the Krumphau more as a preparatory attack to open a line for a secondary attack which even though is a two tempo action can be nearly as fast as a single tempo if executed quickly and decisively enough.
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Jessica Finley

  • New Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • New Member
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #55 on: 2012-09-20, 12:17:36 »
The thing that is great about "striking to the flat of the masters", that is, striking the blade of an incoming oberhau (though this works with an unterhau or even Ochs and Alber) is that you are adding a surprising amount of power into the blow the man is delivering.  It is virtually impossible for him to effectively fight this because he has to IMMEDIATELY change direction of his own blow *and* fight the power you've added to him.  The suppression really does work well. 

Against an unterhau, it's easy to "fall upon his blade" in such a way that you have literally stopped his blow before he can really bring it to bear.  That's really nice, especially if he's coming from his right side because he's all short with his blow from below.  That, naturally, leads to much more of a bind from the suppression, because he's already set up in opposition to your blow. 

As far as attacking a man ready in Ochs, I think it's important to remember that a swordfight isn't a gunfight.  That is, it is never advised to wait, just in Zufechten, in your guard, prepared to attack... I jokingly call this "high noon swordsmanship".  That is, to stand like gunmen in a vacated street... twitching fingers... tumbleweeds blowing through the space between them.  :)  We aren't advised to attack a man *prepared to thrust us in the face* with Krumphau.  We are advised to *break* Ochs with Krumphau. 

So what does breaking mean?  It can mean a hit (which is what most people want it to be), it can be something that stuffs his attack, or something that gets him to twitch and forget what his plan was.  In all three cases it moves him from being on the offensive (in the Vor) to being on the defensive (in the Nach). 

Attacking a man who is set in a good stance with his finger on the trigger is foolish.  Waiting for his attention to drift, looking for him to blink, waiting for him to try to change his stance, looking for him to start to back up... THIS is when you attack a man.  You look for that invitation (fencing language).

What invitations in Och look like: 
  • He takes the stance already with a forward weight and hands exposed - You can attack the hands because his hand motion is already spent and he must attack with his feet which is slower than your strike.
  • He attempts to switch guards, most often to Vom Tag - You can attack the hands because his sword is moving backwards.  This is the principal of nachreisen.
  • He drifts into range without realizing it - You can attack the hands in the Vor because he is not prepared to step.
  • He starts to thrust from Ochs, committing himself to that thrust - You can attack the blade with Krumphau with the "2-tempo" action we have referenced.
  • And the best of all, if He is moving *into* Ochs from another guard in the Zufechten but isn't yet prepared in it - blast the hands.

And these are just a few examples I can think of off the top of my head.

Attacking the prepared man?  Foolish.  Because it doesn't work doesn't mean that Krumphau doesn't work.  It means that is NOT how swordfighting works.  There is a reason duels we have records of lasted hours.  Two men not wanting to get hit are wary, prepared, and actually care about getting hit.   

Jess

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #56 on: 2012-09-20, 14:06:19 »
Those are all excellent points Jessica!  :)

In the one example you provided:
Quote
He starts to thrust from Ochs, committing himself to that thrust - You can attack the blade with Krumphau with the "2-tempo" action we have referenced.

As a small caveat, one should be wary if the thrust from Ochs or Plug is only a feint and is changed (Wechseln / Durchwechseln?) into a vertical cut. – The deception is an invitation to have your blade attacked via the Krumphau but is pulled away (deliberately collapsed) before the blades make contact and the Oberhau is delivered to the newly opened centerline.  ;)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Jessica Finley

  • New Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • New Member
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #57 on: 2012-09-20, 15:29:56 »
Why, Sir Brian, you bring up one of my favorite things to do!  :)  And yet, it takes skill to read the difference between a committed thrust and a feint.  :)  As my old judo instructor used to say of fakes: "you gotta make him believe it."   Or as Master Leichtenauer says "No one defends himself without danger."

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #58 on: 2012-09-20, 16:02:56 »
Aye, the ideal feint is one that can still hit if they don't react to it at all. :)

This trips us up the most in drills. We try to mix in some non-reactions... and man, it throws you off.
« Last Edit: 2012-09-20, 16:03:38 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: On the Krumphau
« Reply #59 on: 2012-09-20, 17:03:16 »
I was tutoring one of our quickly developing novice students with some subtle tactics and he kept falling for my thrust from Phlug feint. I made it especially difficult for him when he wouldn’t react and take the thrust from his inaction. He tried several times to Krumphau the thrust but never successfully until I finally asked him why he kept trying to use the Krumphau against a thrust to the face from Phlug when there were other master cuts better suited for the situation. I slowed down my attacks and we stepped through his attempts to Krumphau the thrust and it became clear to him that since I was in the Vor his attempts for a two tempo (Krumphau + Attack) counter would always be behind in the tempo and would therefore almost always fail. He then wanted to try a Schielhau against the thrust and when we slowed it down it became very clear to him that the Schielhau not only displaces the initial thrust (feint or not), it furthermore keeps the active agent’s blade on the outside line the entire time he is attempting to clear his blade for the follow up Oberhau since the passive agent’s Schielhau is dominating the centerline and taking the shoulder of the active agent.  ;)
« Last Edit: 2012-09-20, 17:07:57 by Sir Brian »
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.