"War is at first like a beautiful girl with whom all men long to play, but in the end like a repulsive hag whose suitors all weep and ache."
                -- Samuel Hanagid (993-1056)

Author Topic: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy  (Read 30775 times)

Sir Rodney

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,118
  • Inquit Corvus
    • The Mercenary Company Nevermore
Within the last few days there has been an explosion of information regarding the business practices of Mr. Brian Price as it relates to armour, authors and royalties due.

The Armour Archive threads "The Sword in Two Hands by Brian Price" review wan and Revival.us spring steel gauntlets- review are some examples.

I'm always the skeptic and do not form an opinion until hearing all the sides (and there are usually many) to a story.  There's just too much reliable information from very reputable sources coming to light lately.  All this information is giving me a headache and put me in a really funky mood.  I purchased Brian's book Techniques Of Medieval Armour Reproduction: The 14th Century many years ago and enjoy it to this day.  Sadly, I doubt I'll be making another purchase from him.

Please form your own opinions as we are not lemmings, but intelligent adults.  For my part I'm just going to sulk in a corner for a bit as my naivety bubble has been burst...
"Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history." - Roger the Shrubber

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #1 on: 2011-02-18, 18:23:19 »
I really didn't mean to start all this. All I was looking for was a few ideas for where to spend a B&N giftcard.

-Ivan
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #2 on: 2011-02-18, 18:38:22 »
I'll look over those threads, but I've heard from several people that I consider to be reliable (if not "inside") sources, and I agree with what you've said here. I really try to buy things elsewhere if I can. And it's a shame too. If you google around, you can find some very interesting writings on chivalry from Brian Price, and he was doing a good thing for the historical community with Chivalry Bookshelf, making a variety of books possible before other alternative publishing options became available. But something changed along the way.

EDIT: I see, from looking at the threads, that my "sources" chimed in directly there. I've been trying to respect their privacy on the matter of royalties and the like by not repeating it myself. But the cat's out of the bag, for better or worse. For those who have no idea what we're talking about, go to this thread and scroll down to the comments from Christian Tobler and Greg Mele.

I really didn't mean to start all this. All I was looking for was a few ideas for where to spend a B&N giftcard.

I wouldn't worry about it. This is something that has been simmering for quite some time.
« Last Edit: 2011-02-18, 19:04:21 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #3 on: 2011-02-20, 01:34:42 »
"TL;DR" version:  Brian Price apparently has no scruples, and avoids paying his authors, printers, and suppliers. So it would be best not to buy books published by Chivalry Bookshelf, or buy anything through revival.us (both of which he runs).

As an aside, I've removed the link to revival.us from the links page.

One additional note though-- If you do want those books, they're worth buying, but not through the CB website or other retailers. Get a used copy, or buy them from Purpleheart if you can, since they pre-stocked a bunch.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Rodney

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,118
  • Inquit Corvus
    • The Mercenary Company Nevermore
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #4 on: 2011-02-20, 02:41:33 »
A former business partner, Mr. Doug Strong (Talbot) has now chimed in with a lengthy post on page 3.  It's getting worse, if that's possible. 
"Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history." - Roger the Shrubber

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #5 on: 2011-02-20, 18:10:02 »

Brian Price himself also has chimed in on page 3 as well, and others have rebutted. Wow. This is nuts.

As much as I don't want to give him any business, I will personally make one exception in that I would still recommend for people to buy "In Service of the Duke" from Christian Tobler. It's the only way to get a full-color reproduction of a historical combat manuscript, and it is beautifully made. The price-tag is huge, yes, but it's worth it as an heirloom quality collectible. Since there is no alternative, I still encourage people to get this if they can, and if they can swallow putting some money in Mr Price's pockets.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #6 on: 2011-02-20, 21:01:03 »
I have a copy of TOMAR, and it's a great resource. I don't have any direct interactions with him, and it's sad to see the reality come out. Seems like at least half of the normally praised armorers in the last few years have either lost their morals or have gone under. I was waiting patiently for his 15th century book, which has been almost as long in the making as Duke Nukem Forever.
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #7 on: 2011-02-21, 15:27:11 »

Wow, someone just added an accusation of plagiarism to the thread too:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1923225#1923225

Man, I certainly take no pleasure in seeing people's disgraces and problems, but I think it's important that all of this gets aired into the open. Criminal and unethical behavior should not be left unchallenged, even if that action is only to make others aware so they don't fall into his trap.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Rodney

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,118
  • Inquit Corvus
    • The Mercenary Company Nevermore
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #8 on: 2011-02-21, 19:15:05 »
I really didn't mean to start all this. All I was looking for was a few ideas for where to spend a B&N giftcard.

-Ivan

Ivan,

I think you have unwittingly done a service to hundreds, maybe thousands, of people. ;)
"Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history." - Roger the Shrubber

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #9 on: 2011-02-22, 08:08:40 »
Ivan,

I think you have unwittingly done a service to hundreds, maybe thousands, of people. ;)

Yes but reading that thread is like watching a car crash; you know something aweful is gonna happen but you just cant turn away.

BTW am I the only one to notice that the behavior Mr Price is showing and the ideals held up in the (very good) Book Of The Tournament that he wrote are just a wee bit dissimilar?

-Ivan
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #10 on: 2011-02-22, 15:18:21 »
BTW am I the only one to notice that the behavior Mr Price is showing and the ideals held up in the (very good) Book Of The Tournament that he wrote are just a wee bit dissimilar?

I think that's one of the more shocking aspects of this whole thing. I doubt anyone expected someone who takes chivalry so seriously, and has written about it so well, to be capable of doing these things. I mean, my initial gut reaction, upon hearing that someone takes chivalry and knighthood seriously, is to assume that their honor is above reproach. Who expects someone to be so two-faced?

But I think there are a lot of people like this in the world. People who are narcissistic sociopaths, in that they are completely self-centered, and everyone else are just pawns, and yet they understand the concepts of the social structures and hierarchies that they participate in and play their part convincingly. I have a feeling a lot of political (and perhaps some religious) leaders are like this as well. They don't necessarily believe in the ideology that they convincingly espouse, at least not as far as how it pertains to them, and find ways of justifying any behavior that advances their personal goals.

It's a sort of anti-chivalry, I think.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Rodney

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,118
  • Inquit Corvus
    • The Mercenary Company Nevermore
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #11 on: 2011-02-22, 16:21:26 »
Mr. Christian Henry Tobler has cross-posted on myArmoury.  Ivan is correct in that this is not dissimilar to watching a car crash or train wreck.

On a related note, I have a solid lead on a USED copy of Fighting with the German Longsword. :)
"Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history." - Roger the Shrubber

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #12 on: 2011-02-23, 04:02:35 »
If anyone here knows anyone in the Schola Saint George, please have them read page 4 of that thread.
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #13 on: 2011-02-23, 17:27:03 »
I shouldn't be surprised but in a way I am.  Anyone who espouses chivalric values would take this entire series to heart.  What's really a shame is that this man's customers came to him because they felt safe in dealing with him, he came highly recommended- that he should prove to be the Knave isn't bad only in the sense of doing business, but bad for the community-at-large.  This guy seems to have years in the Game...and as long as it took him to build up this reputation look how quickly it tumbled.

That none of the parties involved have taken it personal (I believe Richard Blackmoore may've come closest as far as I read) and gone and beaten the man senseless goes to show the level of THEIR individual fortitude...because it sounds like this guy needs it.  BAD.

Thing about it is, it happens more often than I'd thought, years ago.  I've seen these same types of complaints against swordmarkers- there was a guy on SBG who'd promised these semi-custom katanas and life happened and he couldn't deliver and there was a similar outcry.  It is currently happening again, this time on the Euro side of things- I haven't checked in a few months but last time I did, there were a goodly number of orders still outstanding and the delivery date is over a year out if I'm not mistaken.

It almost seems like there should be a medievally-themed BBB to handle this sort of thing.  In any case, my thoughts are with all of those involved, every last one of them because if there's one thing I CAN understand- it is non-delivery of items already paid for in full.  I'm having this same issue, albeit on a much smaller scale than some, and I'm really struggling with keeping things civil, because of the usual requisites, but it is not easy, especially when a job that should've taken a month at most is now nearing the one year mark and I've not had any comms in over a month, despite assurances that I'd hear within ONE WEEK.

This hobby is usually a joy for me but every now and again, it seems more like a curse.
« Last Edit: 2011-02-23, 21:56:53 by Sir William »
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Brian Price / Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival controversy
« Reply #14 on: 2011-02-23, 17:36:38 »

As far as I know, there's still talk of potential legal action on the part of the authors. This could go very badly for Mr Price, since there could be jail-time, not to mention owed remuneration, plus damages, seizure of unsold copies, and returning of publishing rights to the authors.

Let us hope that justice is served.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )