Longpoint - MD KDF event

[Sir Edward]

I hope they do post some or all of your bouts because I think upon review you will see that you didn’t do as badly as you think you did and will get the visual verification that you already know and expressed to me on Saturday in that you did a much better job of controlling the center than being preoccupied with scoring points. 

I hope you're right. The more I try to play it back in my head, the fuzzier it gets, and the more I worry that it'll look like I was just aimlessly flailing the sword around. I feel I did better last year. But who knows.

I’m pretty sure he was wearing lacrosse type of gloves which I know is fairly decent protection but then again there isn’t truly any sure fire protection unless you don’t let them hit you at all of course which I’m a proven failure at! 

One down side of steel gauntlets in a tournament setting is the telltale “clang” of a hit, so a judge doesn’t even have to see the hit to know the blade landed on the hands as one particular bout proved out…funny thing was the week before one of the assistant instructors warned the guy of that potentially happening, (he was a MASHS member as well). 

Is there another "division" or bracket where the combatants wear period armour?

Yeah, pretty much everyone was using some sort of lacrosse or hockey gloves, with a few exceptions. A handful of people did use steel gauntlets. Steel wasn't outlawed, but it was discouraged over a safety concern for the opponent. These bouts allowed for full grappling in the rules, so it was permitted to wrestle and throw each other over. That's just not as safe when plate armor components are involved.

Some of the HEMA/WMA groups do indeed have armored combat. But armor is more expensive and difficult to get, and also extremely unsafe if you're doing actual armored combat techniques (throws, thrusts into the joints of the armor, etc). The idea here was to do unarmored techniques with relatively easy to get sporting gear for safety.

BTW, some of the photos of the event are getting posted on facebook. I found a couple of good ones of me:

 

[Sir William]

Is that Das Bill holding those flags?  Also, Sir Edward...that's not a solid faceplate is it?  I was wondering if it was- how on earth did you see anything?

[Sir Brian]

In the video? - Yep. 

[Sir Edward]

Is that Das Bill holding those flags?  Also, Sir Edward...that's not a solid faceplate is it?  I was wondering if it was- how on earth did you see anything?

Yep, Bill did a lot of judging in the tournaments.

The upper plate is solid, yes, but the seam is just above the eyebrow. The lower plate is about a 50% mesh I think. The upper plate stops you from seeing very far above your opponent's head, but you can see plenty well to see what his sword is up to.

EDIT: You can see these here:  http://www.thatguysproducts.com/masks.html

[Sir Edward]

I feel I did better last year. But who knows.

Meh, actually I think I did so-so last year based on the only video I know from it. This was me (in the blue) vs Chris Wheeler. My hit on him in the last few seconds was really good, but before that I'm spending too much time waiting.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kokLS7yV8ag[/youtube]

[Sir William]

You're a natural counter-striker...I could see it.  Once you'd gauged your opponent's next plausible move, you went to stuff it.  I think you did well.  I'd out-think myself right into a loss, I'm sure.  lol

[Das Bill]

As a non-WMA guy (yet), I'm very surprised by the minimal protective equipment.

Well, here's the catch: Most WMA practice is focused on the martial art aspect, with the sport aspect being an auxilary training element. So just like in Japanese martial arts, you don't wear that much protective gear (at least for the unarmoured aspect, that is). However, the tournament thing has been gaining more and more momentum, for better or worse, and I suspect you'll eventually start seeing more people beef up the protective gear, for better or worse. In the tournament, people tend to get a little more competitive than in general free fencing, and the power level definitely goes up several notches.

Is there another "division" or bracket where the combatants wear period armour?

This was the first Longpoint event (not counting last year, which was an informal get together of the greater DC area to have a mini-tournament). So there was only the unarmoured longsword and the dussack. Maybe eventually there will be an armoured tournament, but as Ed said, to do armoured combat right is really, really dangerous. The point of actual armoured combat is to attack where the armour doesn't protect you. When we do any form of free play in armour at VAF, we leave out a lot of techniques. I suspect if an armoured tournament happened, they'd have to rule out even more techniques. This is why it's so important in WMA that we don't completely focus on the sport aspect alone, otherwise we end up with something that is very different from the reality of combat in favor of necessary safety rules.

[Das Bill]

BTW, some of the photos of the event are getting posted on facebook. I found a couple of good ones of me:

 

Wow, those are great shots, Ed!

I'm actually hoping there are vids posted of you because I didn't get to see any of your bouts. I was judging on Ring 2, so I missed everything on Ring 1 where most of the VAF people fought. It's kind of for the best, as I don't want people to think I was biased as a judge.

[Sir Edward]

Wow, those are great shots, Ed!

I think it was Ben Michels who took them. They're from his albums.

I'm actually hoping there are vids posted of you because I didn't get to see any of your bouts. I was judging on Ring 2, so I missed everything on Ring 1 where most of the VAF people fought. It's kind of for the best, as I don't want people to think I was biased as a judge.

Yeah, that makes sense that you not judge your own students. My bouts were over very quickly, but once I started watching out for the kinds of tricks they were using, it got a little better later on I think. I wasn't at my best.

[Das Bill]

Yeah, that makes sense that you not judge your own students.

Well, David was in my ring, so I was one of the judges for him. I'm hoping no one thinks I was biased on his, as I certainly did my best to be completely impartial.

My bouts were over very quickly, but once I started watching out for the kinds of tricks they were using, it got a little better later on I think.

Welcome to the world of competitive fencing. It's a game, and a huge amout of that game is figuring out what tricks others are going to play with. That's why so many people have been reluctant to adopt the use of tournaments in WMA. I confess that I used to be more against big tournaments, but I'm coming around. I like how Jake introduced the tournaments and even made a point of saying these are ways of encouraging martial spirit, but are still only a sidebar to martial training. If people keep it in that light, then I like the idea of large tournaments.

[Sir Edward]

Well, David was in my ring, so I was one of the judges for him. I'm hoping no one thinks I was biased on his, as I certainly did my best to be completely impartial.

I think you're fine. I doubt anyone would raise an issue there.

Welcome to the world of competitive fencing. It's a game, and a huge amout of that game is figuring out what tricks others are going to play with. That's why so many people have been reluctant to adopt the use of tournaments in WMA. I confess that I used to be more against big tournaments, but I'm coming around. I like how Jake introduced the tournaments and even made a point of saying these are ways of encouraging martial spirit, but are still only a sidebar to martial training. If people keep it in that light, then I like the idea of large tournaments.

Yep, that's always been my hesitation as well. And you guys are right, competitions are inevitable, and this is an opportunity to help steer it in the right direction. I'll probably compete again next year, but I regret not having a chance to do any free play this time. I think organized free play periods would be just as valuable (and combing it with lunch doesn't really work, IMHO).

[Sir James A]

Maybe eventually there will be an armoured tournament, but as Ed said, to do armoured combat right is really, really dangerous. The point of actual armoured combat is to attack where the armour doesn't protect you. When we do any form of free play in armour at VAF, we leave out a lot of techniques. I suspect if an armoured tournament happened, they'd have to rule out even more techniques. This is why it's so important in WMA that we don't completely focus on the sport aspect alone, otherwise we end up with something that is very different from the reality of combat in favor of necessary safety rules.

I would *LOVE* to do some armoured combat. Wouldn't matter to me if it used the same "striking" ruleset as unarmored, in that strikes to almost anywhere are valid "hits" and it wouldn't have everyone trying to go to ground and dagger wrestle. The thrill for me would simply be combat in armor - even if it's similar to SCA combat - but without large shields and "club" swords.

As mentioned, the sounds of swords striking metal would make things quite hard to judge. Then there's the aspect of repairing dents, etc, that gets into a whole other world of muddy mess. It could make for quite the spectator event, though.

[Sir William]

I think I'm of the same mind as Sir James...

[Das Bill]

Well, you don't have to have a tournament to do armoured combat. After all, we do it without tournaments at VAF, as do many WMA groups.

[Sir Brian]

I would *LOVE* to do some armoured combat. Wouldn't matter to me if it used the same "striking" ruleset as unarmored, in that strikes to almost anywhere are valid "hits" and it wouldn't have everyone trying to go to ground and dagger wrestle. The thrill for me would simply be combat in armor - even if it's similar to SCA combat - but without large shields and "club" swords.

Truly I have often envisioned that at some future date when our order has grown to the point when we could have gatherings and social events I would love to see us armor up for a tournament.