"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
                -- Edmund Burke

Author Topic: Longpoint - MD KDF event  (Read 41672 times)

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #30 on: 2011-01-13, 15:22:05 »
I don't see the cutting portion on the schedule; is it possible to take just the cutting class, but spectate for the rest of the event?

You know, I have no idea. I suspect they're treating that as an add on, since the additional costs are for materials. I think the rest of the event cost is needed for renting the facility.

Many of the classes will work well for beginners. You could always sign up for the whole thing. :)


I may have a shot at the next one, but I don't have any gear for this one and I'm not sure if my wife would want to go or want me gone for the whole weekend. It was definitely under consideration. For this one, I'd just like to watch and put a few faces to the names from here. :)
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #31 on: 2011-01-18, 15:53:02 »

The schedule has been completely rearranged, so for those planning to come and watch the tournament, you might want to look at the new times:

http://fightlongpoint.com/?page_id=12
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Das Bill

  • Global Moderator
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ******
  • Posts: 624
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #32 on: 2011-01-23, 06:24:34 »
Day 1 is over, and congratulations need to go out to David Rowe of VAF, who won 2nd place in the Dussack tournament! Lee Smith gave him a run for his money, and the two duked it out in the last bout, with Lee just barely getting the necessary hit to take 1st place. It was a very intense match, and I have to say I'm very proud of David.

I'm about to go to bed, but Sunday is Day 2, when we find out who made it into the finals of the longsword tournament, which will then be fought in the morning.
"A despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of skill." -Master Sigmund Ringeck

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #33 on: 2011-01-23, 12:09:52 »
Yeah Ed gave me a rundown of some of the tournament action. It's a bummer some contestants were more concerned with scoring a hit than their technique, which is really one of the major drawbacks to tournaments IMO. I think they are fantastic as you get to bout with opponents you don't typically see or fight against but again so long as they are more concerned with executing the correct technique.  :-\
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Das Bill

  • Global Moderator
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ******
  • Posts: 624
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #34 on: 2011-01-24, 01:15:28 »
And Day 2 is over.

It's a bummer some contestants were more concerned with scoring a hit than their technique, which is really one of the major drawbacks to tournaments IMO. I think they are fantastic as you get to bout with opponents you don't typically see or fight against but again so long as they are more concerned with executing the correct technique.  :-\

You're absolutely right, and to be honest, that will happen in any tournament format. People get competitive, and they start playing to the rules to gain points rather than focusing on techniques that would be used if your life were really on the line. Having said that, I saw less of that than usual, and I think there was also some really good fencing going on (though some guys REALLY need to dial down the power).

Still, all in all, this was a really good event. I used to be one of the people who didn't like big tournaments due to the gamesmanship factor, but I'm starting to come around. :)
"A despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of skill." -Master Sigmund Ringeck

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #35 on: 2011-01-24, 03:14:37 »
You're absolutely right, and to be honest, that will happen in any tournament format. People get competitive, and they start playing to the rules to gain points rather than focusing on techniques that would be used if your life were really on the line. Having said that, I saw less of that than usual, and I think there was also some really good fencing going on (though some guys REALLY need to dial down the power).

I think there was less of it in the ring you were judging. :) All in all, it was great fun. I wasn't playing for points, so I knew I'd do badly on the score. But the judges didn't start counting doubles and after-blows in my bouts until maybe my 4th bout. They'd go for quick sniping shots without controlling the line, so I'd just hit them back, and lose.  :-\ At least that's the way I remember it. I'll have to see the videos. Admittedly some of those were some messy binds. I doubt it would have made much of a difference since I was playing to have fun and they were playing for points, I just would have liked to have had the chance to have more exchanges where they couldn't get away with a snipe that didn't close the line. Once they started actually counting the doubles, I scored a few points, finally, since they weren't getting away with it anymore.

I agree completely about the power. In fact, I wanted to raise a concern with it. I'm starting to feel that they should disallow hand-strikes completely. I hate adding artificial rules to restrict target area, especially with valid historical techniques that involved shots to the hand, and I don't want to encourage people to over-expose their hands either. But I think it's very difficult to adequately pad the hands under these conditions with the power ramped up. I feel like I saw way too many hand injuries this weekend. David took a shot to his knuckle that swelled up. Chris Wheeler had a purple fingertip. The dude in the finals this morning who had to go to the hospital with a crushed fingertip. And I think I saw at least one or two other people with ice-packs on their hands. I received a half-inch blood blister from a shot that squarely hit the padding of my glove just fine. And Mike Edelson apparently took some sort of hit too (I just know I had to shake hands with him with left hands). To me, this indicates a problem, especially since we all need our hands in our day jobs.

Oh, I was also wondering... when did the idea of saluting each other go away?

I don't want to sound like I'm complaining. It was a fun event, and there will of course always be rough corners to iron out over time with this sort of thing. I hope everyone else had a blast, because I certainly did. :)


« Last Edit: 2011-01-24, 03:30:19 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #36 on: 2011-01-24, 03:21:17 »
I went to spectate, but ended up signing up for classes. I took the beginner's longsword in the morning, and cutting class after lunch. I think I was the only one in the afternoon cutting class that got 3 clean strikes through the full tatami mat - I kept a piece of it as a keepsake.

The tournament was interesting and even though I don't have a great, or even good, understanding of most longsword techniques, it seemed like there were almost no counters. Hopefully the videos will be posted to Youtube.

Overall, it was a really fun event. I got to meet some new people and I had a great time. Unfortunately, handling that sharp albion for the cutting class has really spoiled me. I don't look at my swords the same now.

It sounds like the tournament got a bit more aggressive on the second day. I wonder if steel gauntlets should be a requirement, rather than just padded gloves? There will always be someone hitting too hard, but if they're told they hit too hard and keep doing it ... they should probably be removed from that tourney as a safety liability.

Sir Brian, did you make it out Sunday to watch?
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #37 on: 2011-01-24, 04:16:24 »
I just wanted to add a few thoughts. I realize my previous post sounded a bit negative. It was an excellent event overall. Some highlights:

* They kept the tournaments flowing quickly and smoothly. There was some confusion at times as to who was up and when, but only momentarily and combatants were almost always ready immediately, and things kept moving smoothly.

* David (from VAF) ROCKED the dussack tournament. He only narrowly lost the 1st place position, but he held the "king" position for a crazy amount of time. It was amazing to behold.

* I got to meet some new people, and I got to see a lot of others that I only see occasionally at events like this. I'd say just about everyone I've ever met at these events are really great people.

* The classes were top-notch, as I've come to expect from these sorts of WMA/HEMA events. For something that started out fairly small last year, this event came together very well and didn't sacrifice any quality when it got to become more elaborate.

* There were a lot of really good fencers in attendance this year. Despite my criticisms of certain aspects of the tournament, it was nice to see a lot of good fighters, good fights, and to be able to participate right along with them.

* And I can't emphasize enough how nice it is to have an event like this that is actually close by. :)
« Last Edit: 2011-01-24, 04:16:50 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #38 on: 2011-01-24, 14:35:49 »
Yes I did Sir James and was really pleased to see Bill as well as a few of my fellow MASHS students where three of the four that participated in the tournament made it to the finals. I concur with Bill and Ed with their concerns about the need for some of the contestants needing to ratchet down the power a bit.  :-\

And yet the rule that you are automatically disqualified if you injure your opponent to the point they can’t continue seems excessively harsh and unfair since when it was applied during the finals it disqualified Rick Corley after his hit injured the reigning king’s hand and consequently ending his very impressive run of winning 12 consecutive bouts. Nobody could ever accuse Rick Corley of being excessively aggressive or negligent. In fact I had a very strong impression that he was controlling the initiative of the match very well up until that injury when IIRC he would’ve scored his second point to the king’s zero if the guy hadn’t been injured.

Anyways the point I am attempting to make is that the rule although in place for safety’s sake is too restrictive. I would rather they changed so when a person is injured the judges and referee consult and determine if the person inflicting the injury was using excessive power and aggression or if it was just an unfortunate accident, especially those hand injuries. If the judges and referee decide not to disqualify that contestant then they would be given a warning and for the rest of the tournament if they injure anyone else then they are automatically disqualified.

The one cheesy tactic that was used a few times (especially by the tournament champion) and I considered to be totally unsafe yet was completely allowed were those one handed helicopter cuts to the lower legs. One of them hit so hard it echoed! The reason I thought it was really unsafe was because only a couple of fighters was wearing any type of shin protection. Most, even the tournament champion only had stockings on, no padding whatsoever. I remember after the tournament, when everyone was showing their various wounds, one guy had a nasty welt on his calf from one of those cheap cuts.  :(
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #39 on: 2011-01-24, 14:56:04 »

Yeah, when it comes to the hand injuries, it's a really tricky matter. Sometimes they're hard to avoid, and sometimes they're more the fault of the person receiving it than the one giving it.

With the disqualification, I had a feeling they'd go through with it since that was the agreed upon rule. The previous day they had let one slide, and I'm glad they did, since it was a twisted knee and not a result of the other fighter's actions.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #40 on: 2011-01-25, 01:25:59 »
Here is the round 12 video when Rick Corley hit the King's hand. It was a clean attack and obvious he was doing a typical
oberhau and the guy tried to parry way too late. Truly regrettable for both contestants really.  :(
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxNs6iA3pRI&feature=related[/youtube]
« Last Edit: 2011-01-25, 01:26:28 by Sir Brian »
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #41 on: 2011-01-25, 17:15:00 »
Here is the round 12 video when Rick Corley hit the King's hand. It was a clean attack and obvious he was doing a typical
oberhau and the guy tried to parry way too late. Truly regrettable for both contestants really.  :(

Yeah, that really is unfortunate. Looking at it again in the video, it doesn't look like anything crazy happened here. Just unfortunate timing and positioning.


Here are the posted tournament bouts:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=longpoint+2011+tournament&aq=f

So far only the dussack and longsword finals are posted, and not the larger longsword (day 1) qualification phase which eliminated half the fighters.

Actually I'm ok if they don't post my bouts. That way I can just work on being better next year without anyone making comparisons. :) (Actually, oddly enough, my bouts almost never get posted online even when they're filmed. Something always happens, like the video is unusable, or gets lost, or whatever)

« Last Edit: 2011-01-25, 17:16:14 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #42 on: 2011-01-25, 17:31:05 »
Here is the round 12 video when Rick Corley hit the King's hand. It was a clean attack and obvious he was doing a typical
oberhau and the guy tried to parry way too late. Truly regrettable for both contestants really.  :(

That's a shame. It doesn't look like any intent to injure. Hard to see his gloves, especially since they're black, but I wonder how "protective" they were. A straight-on oberhau hit should almost bounce away if he had steel gaunlets; if it wasn't for cost, I wonder if that might become a required gear rule.
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Rodney

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,118
  • Inquit Corvus
    • The Mercenary Company Nevermore
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #43 on: 2011-01-25, 18:55:28 »
Here is the round 12 video when Rick Corley hit the King's hand. It was a clean attack and obvious he was doing a typical
oberhau and the guy tried to parry way too late. Truly regrettable for both contestants really.  :(

I agree that this seems to be an unfortunate accident.  As a non-WMA guy (yet), I'm very surprised by the minimal protective equipment.  I've been told that weapon control is key and that, obviously, no one intends to hurt their opponent.  This is very evident watching some of the other quality bouts.

I guess I'm just used to the SCA environment where 7.5 foot pole arms are flying all about in a swirling general melee and your hands are guaranteed to be crushed if you're not wearing anachronistic clamshell gauntlets. :(

(edit to add)

Is there another "division" or bracket where the combatants wear period armour?
« Last Edit: 2011-01-25, 18:57:24 by Rodney »
"Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history." - Roger the Shrubber

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: Longpoint - MD KDF event
« Reply #44 on: 2011-01-25, 19:23:59 »
Actually I'm ok if they don't post my bouts. That way I can just work on being better next year without anyone making comparisons. :) (Actually, oddly enough, my bouts almost never get posted online even when they're filmed. Something always happens, like the video is unusable, or gets lost, or whatever)
I hope they do post some or all of your bouts because I think upon review you will see that you didn’t do as badly as you think you did and will get the visual verification that you already know and expressed to me on Saturday in that you did a much better job of controlling the center than being preoccupied with scoring points.  :)


That's a shame. It doesn't look like any intent to injure. Hard to see his gloves, especially since they're black, but I wonder how "protective" they were. A straight-on oberhau hit should almost bounce away if he had steel gaunlets; if it wasn't for cost, I wonder if that might become a required gear rule.

I’m pretty sure he was wearing lacrosse type of gloves which I know is fairly decent protection but then again there isn’t truly any sure fire protection unless you don’t let them hit you at all of course which I’m a proven failure at!  :D

One down side of steel gauntlets in a tournament setting is the telltale “clang” of a hit, so a judge doesn’t even have to see the hit to know the blade landed on the hands as one particular bout proved out…funny thing was the week before one of the assistant instructors warned the guy of that potentially happening, (he was a MASHS member as well).  :-\

Is there another "division" or bracket where the combatants wear period armour?

Hehe, funny you should mention that because Edward and I had the same thought during the tournament!  ;)

« Last Edit: 2011-01-25, 19:48:53 by Sir Brian »
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.