Discussion: Honor

[B. Patricius]

I'm wondering Grand Master Garland, if you ever walked the "Long Grey Line," or were a sailor like our Sir Ian?

I grew up first at St. Mary Katherine's Military School, and then Mater Dei High School.  It was funny, because I couldn't believe how "lax" everything was at the high school even though it was Catholic as well.  I then served, but worked for a living mind you.

I definitely feel honor today is as crucial as ever.  And as others have said, it's sad to see so many who don't follow it, let alone those that make fun of it.  But as one Gunnie said to me when I was very young, "it takes only a spark to drown out the darkness" and within this group, I see a good many sparks.

[Grand Master Garland]

I agree with you Br. Patricius.   Few in our time follow the path of honor.   For men are like sheep who with rare exception follow the flock and that flock today is not only led but also taught by those who are not true friends.   Men first must look for the truth, but so few do today; and if they find truth, so few have the necessary grace to realize it; and finally, that very remnant after having searched and found truth must be willing to overthrow negative preconditioning, and possess the courage to commit their lives to it.  On this very matter:

I've been interested in Yeoman Thorsteinn's good works on the disorder of asperges which he lives with and in the positive response to his postings from the forum members.  I would like to say here that we Knights of St. John are engaged in developing an advocacy program for those who live with disorders of the brain.   We choose to identify the root causative factors almost exclusively to be faulty utilization of endogenous monoamine neurotransmitters rather than as what most professionals in the field pin as the source:  the vagaries of "behavioral health".   In other words we are focusing on advocacy which searches in all cases for a clinical etiology and the effective neuropharmacology to be applied for each case. 

I did walk the path of the "Long Grey Line", but only for two years.  My quest for the truth had previously begun at the VMI where the rat line instilled in me that particular form of honor of which I previously spoke.  It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path.  God's will be done.    

[Ian]

It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path.  God's will be done.

I'm sorry that you feel this way about those of us on active duty service to our country.  I personally don't find it hard to reconcile the things I may not agree with in the military with my personal honor.

[Sir James A]

It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path.  God's will be done.

I'm sorry that you feel this way about those of us on active duty service to our country.  I personally don't find it hard to reconcile the things I may not agree with in the military with my personal honor.

Nor would I think that hired knights of the past would find difficulty in serving a king, baron or otherwise, while retaining their personal honor. It is possible to do things you don't agree with, considering the request, while not dishonoring yourself. To borrow a line from A Knight's Tale:

Jocelyn: If you would prove your love, you should do your worst.... Instead of winning to honor me with your fine reputation, I want you to lose.... To show your obedience to your lover and not to yourself.

Does doing this lessen his honor (by not doing what he wants)? Would winning increase his honor by disrespecting his lover's request?

[Sir Patrick]

It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path.  God's will be done.

I'm sorry that you feel this way about those of us on active duty service to our country.  I personally don't find it hard to reconcile the things I may not agree with in the military with my personal honor.

Sir Ian, I've said it before but it bears repeating:  Thank you for your service.

Standing by an oath sworn (in this case the defense of country) is inextricably tied to personal honor. If a order is not amoral or against the rules of war, there is no dishonor in doing one's duty, regardless of personal opinion concerning policy. That, IMHO, should be proof enough that the members of our armed forces are NOT "federal mercenaries".

[Lord Dane]

Honor is a deeply personal trait that has profound impact of those who take an Oath to serve, whether it be for justice, a military, a country, or even a leader. It defines in part the character of the person who takes it upon themselves to live up to the meaning of its virtue and value (which can significantly vary in both personal & professional viewpoints). What is important about honor is that it is lived up to regardless of the circumstances that even at times includes making sacrifices that are above and beyond our own self-serving interests.

Those of us that serve others by an Oath know what it means to have honor & as such, it is a distinct part of that person's character. To honor the words and meaning of the office you hold, in itself defines you hold honor in your words and in itself, makes you a person of honor. One does not need to be a hero to have honor, but by simply living up to its ideal, you have obtained the meaning of the virtue. I salute those who serve with honor, and will sacrifice the same to serve them as my brethren in spite of those who would offend them.

Honor is sacrifice above all and selflessness in service; not selfishness in one's actions.

[Grand Master Garland]

Is my decison 30 years ago not to become a "federal mercenary" a cause for you all to personalize the term?  Don't confuse my experiences with your own.  The majority of men I knew in the service weren't there for honor or country but did do their duty under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.  At that time most of my classmates at West Point were there for a free, first class education which they paid off with 5 years in service.  In the SFGA just about everyone I knew was there to get paid for parachuting out of airplanes.  Sorry, but that's just my experience.  I've served 8 years in the Army.  Moreover, I was a private mercenary for another 8 years so in regards to Sir Patrick's comment, since I was one, the term mercenary has no negative connotation to me.  Maybe you guys have other, more esoteric experiences in the military but those are mine.  And then there is the matter that for senior military officers personal honor can and is sometimes trumped by political orders from both the US Congress and the US President.  This is a well honed tradition of the U S military command structure and frankly it isn't working well considering the current administration in power in WDC. Consider Operation Keelhaul, even the Benghazi station crisis.  A friend just came back from Afghanistan:  Google "Afghanistan" and "pedophilia".  Is there honor in supporting a regime that sanctions institutionalized pedophilia? Not in my world.

[B. Patricius]

Grand Master,

with all due respect, I think what we all took in some manner or form personally, was just the way you posted

It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path.  God's will be done.    

  I know plenty of devout men and women who have taken the Long Grey Line and are serving honorably for their God first, country second.  I also know plenty who believe that the term "God, Country, Corps" is a synonym and that in their lives, they cannot have one without the other two.  That it took the Corps to understand their God, and respect their country.  That came from a man who literally was told "serve or jail."  And in his service decided after active duty to continue to serve as a mentor at our military academy, serving the youngest to help them learn from his mistakes rather than follow that life accidentally or on purpose.

A lot of members within this forum, are active duty military.  A lot of members within this forum are veterans.  A few of us, are even disabled veterans.  I know others, just by what they have posted must be some form of either state, county, local, or federal Law Enforcement.

To top that off,

And then there is the matter that for senior military officers personal honor can and is sometimes trumped by political orders from both the US Congress and the US President.  This is a well honed tradition of the U S military command structure and frankly it isn't working well considering the current administration in power in WDC. Consider Operation Keelhaul, even the Benghazi station crisis.  A friend just came back from Afghanistan:  Google "Afghanistan" and "pedophilia".  Is there honor in supporting a regime that sanctions institutionalized pedophilia? Not in my world.

to put it plainly, quite a few of us know our oaths, and we know the UCMJ.  "unlawful orders" is something in there for a reason, and it can be because it strongly doesn't fit with one's personal honor code.  I've personally seen a Chief Warrant Officer yell "shove it up your @$$" discretely to an officer and I thought I was going to get it too because I was the helmsman and knew knew the officer was wrong and so obeyed the Warrant rather than the Lieutenant (O3 for the groundpounding types).  But the warrant was a CWO4, 35+ years, 25+ years at sea, and was our "boats."  To put it plainly it was his job to see to the safety of our ship.  And I had my faith in him, as much as our Operations Officer, the LT who was wrong.

We all had a discreet coffee afterwards, on the bridge with no one else there.  The op wasn't dangerous, and was fairly routine, but if we had followed Ops' orders, people would have gotten hurt.  He knew it too immediately after Boats called him out on it, and actually shook my hand and said "good job" for obeying Boats.

I've seen it in other circles as well.

Basically, I think what everyone is trying to question is what you're getting at?  It was through my Catholic faith that called me to a higher purpose to serve, and protect my country and defend those that couldn't defend themselves.  No offense is meant by this, but to put it plainly from a cynical, often grumpy, NCO, how do you place a few bad seeds as the whole crop?!?  We could easily do it back talking about the pedophiles of the Catholic Church.  We could easily argue back about atrocities commited by the Holy Orders, the Hospitallers included mind you, from 1000 years ago.

I can't help but remember how you said it would be a hard time talking about Chivalry without talking about Catholicism and its place within it.  As a Catholic, I understand where you're coming from.  As an Anthropologist, I can't agree with it.  Honor codes don't have to coincide with Religion, with a capital R because all too often those people we are meant to respect as the protectors of our faith are committing some of the worst atrocities that can be made.  And yes, above all else, I feel taking advantage of anyone of a minor age, is the worst.  And you can argue that I started this, and that's fine.  But to be honest, you started it by placing our US Military, all of us, 100%, as "bad apples" by bringing up wrongs in Afghanistan. 

War is ugly, and if the world were perfect there would be no need for it.  But as St. Bernard de Clairvaux once said, in this world, we need sheepdogs to protect the sheep.

[Grand Master Garland]

Br. Patricius, thanks for your reply.  I’m happy to explain my statements which appear to be projecting some negative connotation on our military.  You are missing the point and mixing the military forces with the politics.  Our military is the action arm of political decisions made in WDC and those political decisions are the source of concern for patriots serving in the military.  I have always regretted not being able to continue my own career in the US military but have never regretted the difficult decision I made as a 20 year old West Point Cadet .  Many of us lost friends and relatives in that war which should have been brought to a happy resolution.  So I set out on a personal quest to find the reasons why so many in our country, including the politicians in WDC, were against both our warriors and against the defeat of the Communist genocide in Vietnam.  I completed my quest by finding both the reasons and the proofs, eventually being elected Master of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem which struggles against these forces. 

[B. Patricius]

In response to your reply, Grand Master Garland.  In all orders of the Faith, regardless be they secular or lay, isn't it "one must be penitent before God?"  Because I know in my Order it is.

YIS
B. Patricius

[Lord Dane]

In response to your reply, Grand Master Garland.  In all orders of the Faith, regardless be they secular or lay, isn't it "one must be penitent before God?"  Because I know in my Order it is.

YIS
B. Patricius

Me thinks someone has been watching re-runs of "Indiana Jones & the Last Crusade". 

[B. Patricius]

 

not going to lie Lord Dane, as I wrote that, I pictured Joe Metz's picture in his Templar garb kneeling on that book of faces!

[Corvus]

Brother Patricius;

I would like to offer my compliments on this comment made by you in a recent post:  "I can't help but remember how you said it would be a hard time talking about Chivalry without talking about Catholicism and its place within it.  As a Catholic, I understand where you're coming from.  As an Anthropologist, I can't agree with it.  Honor codes don't have to coincide with Religion, with a capital R because all too often those people we are meant to respect as the protectors of our faith are committing some of the worst atrocities that can be made."

As a person who is both a non Christian and and of Native American extraction I must say that this statement struck me as very well put. I was raised in a traditional way and learned the warrior path from a very young age. I have always had a code of ethics and a healthy sense of morality. Knights and their adventures were something that attracted me very early on and they had a profound effect on how I progressed as I grew older.
Honor is a very important thing to me and to many others like me who are not necessarily of the Christian faiths. I think that living in a chivalrous, gentlemanly and respectable way is a matter of the heart of a man, not particularly his brand of religious belief. There have been and still are many great fellows who I have known - of numerous different faiths - who have been an inspiration as a result of their hale behavior and deeds.

Honor and a code of chivalrous living is what drew me to this forum and to the company of all you hale gentlemen in the first place. I am a deeply spiritual person and I feel that the Creator has always guided me to be the best person I can be.

So thank you for your words. Muchly appreciated indeed. 

[Sir William]

Is my decison 30 years ago not to become a "federal mercenary" a cause for you all to personalize the term?  Don't confuse my experiences with your own. 

Your decision so, of course not.  However, your choice of words-

It didn't take long to determine that an honorable life would be difficult to live as a federal mercenary and therefore chose a different path.

-has obviously struck a chord.  There's no personal qualifiers there- it simply says that an honorable life would be difficult to live...the implication being not just for you, but for anyone who has served, is still serving or will serve in the future.  I get that this is just your experience and no one else's- it just doesn't read that way.

If I've never said it before, I am grateful to all who have served or are currently serving their country- whether or not they feel such service honorable, they've performed it and for that, I thank them.

[Corvus]

Well said!