Discussion: Humility

[Sir Edward]

Next virtue for discussion is Humility. I'm starting it a day sooner since I figured Truth would quiet down relatively quickly.

Dictionary.com defines it as such:

the quality or condition of being humble; modest opinion or estimate of one's own importance, rank, etc.

The obvious intent behind having Humility as a chivalrous virtue is that a knight should not be boastful or arrogant. But what is probably open to debate is how far do you take it? Clearly it's not meant to be self-denigrating or show a lack of self-respect. And on the flip side, knights often did celebrate their deeds.

I think to a certain degree, Humility at it's heart implies truthfulness about the self. That is, it's OK to speak truthfully of your strengths as well as your weaknesses. Both your successes and failures. But when speaking well of your own deeds and abilities, it is important to do so in a truthful and non-arrogant manner, avoiding exaggeration, overt self-praise, and conceit.

But I think it also implies speaking well of others when the opportunity presents itself. To be more quick to praise others than yourself.

Thoughts?

[Sir Wolf]

they once gave me a button for being humble but they took it away cause i wore it.

[Sir Patrick]

A knight should be quick to recognize the contributions of others, rather than steal the spotlight for himself (even if his achievements deserve such recognition).  A knight should never carry out his duty as a means of acquiring glory, but as the necessary obligation of upholding his knightly vows.  As a knight, he is expected to behave in such a way, and to self-agrandize those behaviors is vain.  An eagle is majestic, beautiful, and graceful, but he does not say to the other birds, "Hey, look at me!"  He just is an eagle, doing what he does not for recognition, but simply because it's what eagles do.

[Sir Edward]

they once gave me a button for being humble but they took it away cause i wore it.

Hey, I'm the most modest person I know. I rule.

All kidding aside, I was thinking a little about how Humility plays into the modern day. In some ways, this may be one of the traits that's lacking most in modern society, especially if you consider it from the standpoint I was mentioning in my previous post, that it's not just about avoiding arrogance and conceit, but also not being self-denigrating either.

I think modern culture has absorbed a couple of paradoxical traits. On one hand, large numbers of people have problems with their self image. I saw an interesting article (blog post, actually) called "The disease called Perfection" which describes some of this. Insecurities and an obsession with one's own flaws can lead people to all sorts of self destructive behavior, not to mention mistreatment of people around them.

On the other hand, there's also a level of narcissism, which Sir Brian mentioned in another thread. Today we have a cultural trend towards a lack of personal responsibility, and a sense of entitlement. People blame everyone else for their problems, and want easy fixes.

I wonder why it's so hard for people to develop a balanced and truthful outlook.

I think one of the lessons to be learned is, rather than ignore, redirect, or obsess over your faults, it's better to evaluate them individually and choose a course of action. Those that can be addressed, you work on. Those that you're stuck with, make peace with them. And then do the same for your strengths. Work to improve them.

I think the knightly approach should be not to be saddened by your flaws, but never be truly satisfied either. Always strive for the unreachable, but don't dwell on your failings.

Does that make sense?

[Sir William]

Makes perfect sense to me...I have said, in conversations going back some years, that one of the biggest problems I see in the world today is the lack of personal accountability.  Look at us...we live in a highly litigious society where everyone sues everyone else for perceived blame.  Things that should be categorized as part of the 'common sense canon' are no longer part of it.  Everyone remembers that frivolous million dollar lawsuit against McDonald's because someone burned their mouth when they tried to take a sip from a coffee they had JUST GOTTEN.  Or the elected official who sued a mom-and-pop cleaners for ruining a pair of tuxedo pants...he wanted a million dollars too.  He nearly got it, watching this farce was disgusting to say the least.

It is deeprooted, this lack of personal accountability too...I look around me daily and see many examples of societal breakdown because of a lack of personal accountability perpetrated by fear...fear of litigation should one decide to physically discipline (spank) their children, publicly or privately, teachers in schools no longer hold any sway over our children unless we raise them to recognize the status and importance of teachers, parents no longer hold any sway over their children...notice I said 'their' because MY children were raised as I was, I hope mine are not the exception.  Fear of reprisal from your fellow man has given rise to this 'no-snitch' phenomenon that is most prevalent in non-Caucasian areas...so law-abiding citizens have no real protection from retribution should they do their civic duty and speak out against crimes in their neighborhoods.  So much is wrong in the world, and a lot of people turn a blind eye to it, desiring to focus on their individual pursuits at the expense of all others.

This may be an unpopular point of view, but I attribute our current state of downfall on one specific occurrence- the removal of prayer from schools.  By taking God out of the equation, the way was paved for man to make their own way via their own interpretation.  Madelyn Murray O'Hair knew exactly what she was doing when she sued to have public prayer removed from schools.

She also believed that elementary school age children should be allowed to explore their sexuality unsupervised...imagine that.

I do this all the time; my apologies, fellow knights.

[Sir Patrick]

It never ceases to amaze me how the various aspects of chivalry are so intertwined that even ones we think can stand alone are actually propped up by the others.  Take our current subject of humility.  It is impossible to fully express this virtue without also expressing the virtue of truth.  You must be truthful with yourself to be humble.  As Paladin said, we live in an age of zero accountability.  It is always someone else's fault that we fail (a ridiculous notion if there ever was one), and when we do fail, we immediately seek retribution against those who we percieved as causing our failure.  A Disease Called Perfection indeed!  Regardless of the cause, this attitude is IMO, THE root of what is wrong with society today.  If I'm perfect, I can never be wrong.  Of course, the next guy thinks the exact same thing about himself, so you see how this can spiral down to the point where "Might makes right" and the only truths in life are the ones the strong impose upon the weak (sound like any time period we all have an interest in?).  Society could do with a little honest self-evaluation and the humilty that would result.

[Sir William]

Well said, Red Knight...and it seems we're all in agreement for the most part.  The world's in shambles, there a great many people who could be categorized as morally bankrupt- the ability to govern one's self has morphed into the ability to govern others by attenuating them to your desires. 

Political Correctness, anyone?  It is the method by which a man castrates himself for the 'greater good'.  We worry so much about offending others that we've turned a blind eye to what offends us, singly and as a people.

[Sir Brian]

Excellent read on this discussion. All of you fine knights have covered every nuance of this subject!

I was so pleased to read your post Red Knight when you expressed the correlation of all the virtues and if we are to categorize these virtues I would say truth could be the backbone of chivalry and humility would be the sinew that holds it together.

@ Paladin you never have to apologize for expressing your thoughts and beliefs when amongst brethren! (Besides I completely agree with you!) 

[Sir Wolf]

yes these are great threads.

[Sir Brian]

I would like to share a summarization of a conversation Rosemary and I had with an old renfaire acquaintance of ours (well old since 2008 when we started going to other out of town fairs). 

We were discussing the DOW and that lead to the wearing of garb in general at renfairs and he made the comment about how the main reason people who dressed up were essentially vain and craved the attention of photographers and the mundane public, much like celebrities and the paparazzi. 

Rosemary and I were a little offended by this but nonetheless attempted to enlighten him as to the real reason we wore garb and I share this with you all since I know we are all of kindred spirits and belief in this:

I informed him that we do not care about getting photographed; we do not endure hours upon hours of constant requests for photos while armored up in the heat for the mere jollies of getting photographed by a multitude of patrons. No we endure all that as a form of payment for the dues that must be paid to receive the one reward we truly crave and that is the look of awe from the youngsters which is really the one magical moment when we know that we have helped make an indelible memory in that child’s life that may just be the spark of interest that will carry that youngster to pursue and contribute to the preservation of some aspect of history or perhaps the expressive expansion of human creativity. That my good sirs are small touches of immortality that is possible for us beyond our immediate families and I find that notion to be most humbling.

[Sir William]

and that is the look of awe from the youngsters which is really the one magical moment when we know that we have helped make an indelible memory in that child's life that may just be the spark of interest that will carry that youngster to pursue and contribute to the preservation of some aspect of history or perhaps the expressive expansion of human creativity. That my good sirs are small touches of immortality that is possible for us beyond our immediate families and I find that notion to be most humbling.

You said it all right there, Sir Brian. 

[Sir Edward]

Well said, indeed! You never know which moments will be forever recorded in child's mind. The opportunity to be an inspiration is truly humbling. Having our picture taken every 5 feet around the faire site isn't at all why we do this, though it too can be fun. It has never been about vanity. If we were attention-whores, there are far more shocking things we could wear.

[Sir William]

I never knew it was like that til I was standing there w/you guys...ordinarily, I might get one or two requests but I lost count of how many there were at some point.  We'd be engaged in conversation only to get a request, then get turned around as another request came in...my wife couldn't keep up!  lol

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, when we're in a group together, the picture requests just sort of multiply. If I'm by myself, I still get them, but not as many. Unless I'm looking for someone or stuffing my face at lunch, then I get asked constantly.

However, a lot of it is the helmets. If we put them on, it can take us a few hours to walk around the site because we'll get photo-ops constantly. Take them off, and look like you're in a hurry, and you can walk from one end to the other and only get stopped once or twice.

[Sir William]

LOL @ look like you're in a hurry...I know it may sound bad but sometimes, for the sake of alacrity, I'll avoid making eye contact.  You know someone's wanting your attention because they're looking at you intently and I try to rhino my way past, as it were.  I don't do it often, only when I'm leaving or looking for something to eat.

Is it just me or do you guys eat more than your usual wont?  I chalk it up to the extra energy expenditure of walking around fully garbed and in armor!  Hey, it works for me.  Steak on a stake is both my friend and my enemy...I can't leave'm alone.  And I still have not had the pork that Sir Brian told me about...I plan on indulging on that starting next year!