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Author Topic: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit  (Read 18449 times)

Silvanus

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Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« on: 2009-09-04, 03:52:33 »
Hi All.

This is my first post. I have had the pleasure of meeting Sir Brian at MDRF. And Das Bill at VFA when I was enrolled there, although I have never had the privilege of taking one of his HS classes. I was hoping to get a little advice and/or criticism of my current kit.

I have:

1. A gambeson .. http://www.realarmorofgod.com/store/html/Products/Armor/Medieval-Armor/Gambeson-399.html
2. A Norman tunic.
3. Black hosen.
4. Flat riveted chain mail steel hauberk.
5. Butted steel chain mail leggings .. http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/c-50-chainmail-chauses.aspx
6. Butted steel chain mail coif.
7. Teutonic Knight surcoat .. http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-1439-medieval-surcoat-with-cross.aspx
8. Period Boots (Black)
9. Several period belts. One I wear over ribs to aid with Hauberk carrying. 1 Knights Belt w/sword frog. And one for aesthetic purposes to enclose my surcoat.
10. Several functional period swords including G2 Teutonic, and Darksword Norman.
11. One small convex tear-drop shield painted with my own chi-rho Cross design.
12. Chain mail gauntlets .. http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-2329-mail-gauntlets.aspx

My main concern is that something is egregiously wrong, anachronistic, or just plain silly. Would there be something you gentlemen would switch immediately in this kit? What should be my next purchase?

I was considering, for example: http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~RB02~name~Leather+Boot+Gaiters.htm as right now my leggings are simply tied over my boots with leather strips.

And this belt: http://www.realarmorofgod.com/store/html/Products/Historical-Clothing/Medieval-Men/12th-Century-Sword-Belt-806.html

Any foolishness you might save me from will be most appreciated.

I will put up a series of photos as soon as I can, if it helps.

Thank you.

« Last Edit: 2009-09-04, 04:23:07 by Silvanus »

Sir Wolf

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #1 on: 2009-09-04, 11:32:05 »
greetings and welcome.


I would not get the boat coverings I know of no such monster in period ;)  I 'm not quiet sure what you mean by tied leggings etc? there are statues in which you can see mail leggings tied at just below the knee area.

your kit reads to be pretty good so far. but pictures of the entire thing would be better heheeh, encase you couldn't tell we love photos here.

how long are the sleeves on your hauberk?
I would remove the metal from the cuffs of the gauntlets
Do you have a padded coif to wear under the mail coif?
is your surcoat sewn up the sides? how long is it?

Sir Edward

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #2 on: 2009-09-04, 14:38:26 »
I'd love to see pictures of the whole thing too.  As Wolf said, it reads pretty good.

The kinds of historical accuracy errors you probably have are the same ones that plague all of us, just because commodity off-the-shelf armor usually is made with certain flaws. It typically lacks the tailoring that's necessary to make it act like a "second skin". This is particularly true with the sleeves and leggings. Looking at your avatar photo, it looks like the sleeves are about 3/4 or 2/3 length, and of course you have the MRL style mail gauntlets. In the late 12th and early 13th, this should be a full length sleeve with integrated gauntlet, and the sleeves should be tapered to contour with the lower arm instead of gaping open. Since what you have is riveted, this would be hard to change on the existing hauberk, but not impossible. The half sleeves work well if you move into the early 14th and start wearing some plate elements. But personally, this is one area I don't mind cheating on, just because of the availability of armor and the impracticality of tailoring it yourself.

This goes for the leggings too. It's hard to make a "one size fits all" offering that will fit people and move correctly. Most people end up with a baggy mail tube hanging over their legs. Unless you make it yourself, I'm not sure this can be avoided. But since you mentioned it's butted links, you can always taper it by removing material, and add some expansion triangles around the knee area so it still bends properly. The legs are probably the hardest to deal with, because there are so few offerings out there, and as I'm discovering, the tailoring of it is just a nightmare. Most people, I think, tend to overlook this and don't wear leg armor if they're trying to do a 12 century sort of look. The fact that you have mail chauses is awesome. :)

Please don't take any of this as criticism! It's great that you're including all of these components, and I'm just pointing out these things because you asked. My kit has suffered from some of the same problems, and it's an on-going struggle to improve it. In some ways, I'm still less period correct with round butted aluminum mail, but I started making it before you could buy all this great riveted stuff that's out there now.

It's always useful to know where you are inaccurate and where you can improve things. :)

Speaking of the mail gauntlets, how do you like them? I just ordered a pair myself, and my plan is to take the plate cuffs off.

« Last Edit: 2009-09-04, 14:39:27 by Sir Edward »
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Silvanus

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #3 on: 2009-09-04, 14:54:23 »
greetings and welcome.


I would not get the boat coverings I know of no such monster in period ;)  I 'm not quiet sure what you mean by tied leggings etc? there are statues in which you can see mail leggings tied at just below the knee area.

your kit reads to be pretty good so far. but pictures of the entire thing would be better heheeh, encase you couldn't tell we love photos here.

how long are the sleeves on your hauberk?
I would remove the metal from the cuffs of the gauntlets
Do you have a padded coif to wear under the mail coif?
is your surcoat sewn up the sides? how long is it?


Thank you, Sir Wolf. Was almost ready to click the purchase button on the boot coverings. As it is now, I tighten the leggings with leather ties so that they aren't flapping around. The sleeves on my hauberk reach just below the elbow, and these I also tighten with leather ties. I do have a padded arming cap to wear under the coif, forgot to mention that. My surcoat is open on the sides, and reached to my shins.

I will remove the plate from my gauntlets this weekend as well. But should I then look into getting some leather or metal bracers?

Again, as soon as I can convince someone to take some photos of me, I will do so. This weekend. Even if I have to threaten a peasant....
« Last Edit: 2009-09-04, 14:56:01 by Silvanus »

Sir Edward

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #4 on: 2009-09-04, 14:55:27 »

Excellent, using ties to secure the mail is a great idea!

Oh, and welcome to the forum! :)
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Sir Brian

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #5 on: 2009-09-04, 15:05:15 »
Greetings Silvanus!
Great to see you again on the forum! I concur with Sirs Wolf & Ed in that your harness is pretty much on the mark for the time period you was going for. Having seen your harness first hand just this past Sunday, I think it is exceptionally well done!  :)

I didn’t notice on Sunday if you had gilded spurs or not and if you don’t have any spurs than that would be the only recommendation I could think of to add to your kit.  :-\

I do like that sword belt you are considering on adding! I’ll have to book mark that for adding it to my Teutonic knight harness.  ;)

Quote
One of the most important symbols of a knight was his gilt spurs. A squire wore silver spurs. The distinction was enormous in the Middle Ages. This quotation, from the 18th century, points to that distinction: "Anciently the Difference between the Knight and Esquire was, that the Knight wore gilt Spurs,...and the 'Squire silver'd ones" (1728, Oxford English Dictionary).
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Silvanus

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #6 on: 2009-09-04, 15:07:31 »
I'd love to see pictures of the whole thing too.  As Wolf said, it reads pretty good.

The kinds of historical accuracy errors you probably have are the same ones that plague all of us, just because commodity off-the-shelf armor usually is made with certain flaws. It typically lacks the tailoring that's necessary to make it act like a "second skin". This is particularly true with the sleeves and leggings. Looking at your avatar photo, it looks like the sleeves are about 3/4 or 2/3 length, and of course you have the MRL style mail gauntlets. In the late 12th and early 13th, this should be a full length sleeve with integrated gauntlet, and the sleeves should be tapered to contour with the lower arm instead of gaping open. Since what you have is riveted, this would be hard to change on the existing hauberk, but not impossible. The half sleeves work well if you move into the early 14th and start wearing some plate elements. But personally, this is one area I don't mind cheating on, just because of the availability of armor and the impracticality of tailoring it yourself.

This goes for the leggings too. It's hard to make a "one size fits all" offering that will fit people and move correctly. Most people end up with a baggy mail tube hanging over their legs. Unless you make it yourself, I'm not sure this can be avoided. But since you mentioned it's butted links, you can always taper it by removing material, and add some expansion triangles around the knee area so it still bends properly. The legs are probably the hardest to deal with, because there are so few offerings out there, and as I'm discovering, the tailoring of it is just a nightmare. Most people, I think, tend to overlook this and don't wear leg armor if they're trying to do a 12 century sort of look. The fact that you have mail chauses is awesome. :)

Please don't take any of this as criticism! It's great that you're including all of these components, and I'm just pointing out these things because you asked. My kit has suffered from some of the same problems, and it's an on-going struggle to improve it. In some ways, I'm still less period correct with round butted aluminum mail, but I started making it before you could buy all this great riveted stuff that's out there now.

It's always useful to know where you are inaccurate and where you can improve things. :)

Speaking of the mail gauntlets, how do you like them? I just ordered a pair myself, and my plan is to take the plate cuffs off.




Thank you Sir Edward.

It's somewhat comforting to know that even you gentlemen have trouble/concerns maintaining a completely historically accurate kit.

I take no advice as criticism, so please feel free to be brutally honest about your suggestions. I've scoured the Osprey Guides about my time period, and am still uncertain. Should I invest in a pair of leather or metal greaves to wrap around my shins?

Also, what did you think of the belt I hope to get? .. http://www.realarmorofgod.com/store/html/Products/Historical-Clothing/Medieval-Men/12th-Century-Sword-Belt-806.html (As far as I can determine, it seems accurate, and aesthetically pleasing.)

I love the mail gauntlets, but agree with Sir Wolf that the plate should come of, in which case I may need bracers?

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I realize that you and perhaps many of the other knights here are at least a century or two after my period. And thank you for welcoming me to the Forum.

And I will get some photos this weekend.

Silvanus
« Last Edit: 2009-09-04, 15:09:35 by Silvanus »

Silvanus

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #7 on: 2009-09-04, 15:27:42 »
Hail Sir Brian  :)

It was good to see you this past Sunday! Thanks for the positive feedback, and any advice you have, please offer it.

I am not sure I've "earned" my spurs yet.  ;)  I was hoping to add them last to my harness, after it's complete as possible, as the crowning piece.

Yes that belt is making my mouth water.  ;D

Sir Edward

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #8 on: 2009-09-04, 17:53:44 »

I think the sword belt looks pretty good from the photo.

I'd be tempted to look into something similar. I have a double-wrap belt, but it's a single frog, so it wants to let the sword hang vertically, which is a problem of course.
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Silvanus

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #9 on: 2009-09-07, 04:31:38 »
Hi All -

Here are the photos I promised earlier. Again please be brutally honest about what you would change.







Here below is a project I am working on to add mail to my boots:






Some sword work in harness:





Notice the sword frog and scabbard flapping around....







Well that's it. The sword frog is definitely not a go. I really must get this more accurate, secure sword belt: http://www.realarmorofgod.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=806

When I remove the plates from the gauntlets, should I then get a set of leather vambraces?

Thanks again for any and all advice.

Silvan
« Last Edit: 2009-09-07, 04:53:33 by Silvanus »

Sir Edward

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #10 on: 2009-09-07, 05:01:52 »
Looking good! I like what you've done with the ties on the legs, keeping the mail in close. I believe this was done in period, and it looks good. The boot project is a nice idea, giving it the look of complete chauses that cover the shoes.

I'm finding similar problems with some of the cheaper sword frogs out there-- they flop around too much. You probably will be a lot happier with that belt, and I believe it's more period correct too.

As for the cuffs on the gauntlets, I think technically for your period you'd have mail going all the way down your arm. Have you thought about making mail sleeve extensions? Or you could extend mail back from the hand (like a long opera glove) and bind it in under the existing sleeve with ties or points. It still wouldn't be 100% accurate, but like the boot coverings, would give the right sort of look by having the appearance of continuous mail.
« Last Edit: 2009-09-07, 05:03:55 by Sir Edward »
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Sir Brian

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #11 on: 2009-09-07, 09:58:24 »
I can't really add anything more than what has already been posted but as I also stated before I am
very impressed with your kit!  Huzzah! :)

Thanks especially for the action shots! I don't get to see enough of those from our resident students
of the blade here! (insert subtle hint here:)  ;)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir Wolf

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #12 on: 2009-09-07, 13:31:53 »
wow I'm impressed. very nice.

some "pointers"

can you sew? I would cut back the arm/shoulder area a little of the surcoat and the sew it down teh sides a tad.  This would keep the soulders from lookin glike wings

I like the boot mail and the chausis. If you feel they flap too much and you don't want that many ties, you could always tailor the mail a tad. take some of the rings out etc.  Mine are sewn with a leather thong up the back of the calf.  Once tied you can not see the laceing and it stays nice and tight. dang it not I want mail over my shoes!! darn you ehhehe

the guantlets work well but like ti was said I really think the plate needs to go.  if I were you I would add mail up the forearm and either lace or perm attach the guantlets to the shirt.  It would make a really cool look!

overall I like it.  where do you live? do you goto the MD faire? hehehe

Sir Wolf

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #13 on: 2009-09-07, 13:58:06 »
you may also want to make a wrap belt for your kit. I made mine and its super easy.  it ties instead of buckles at the wasit and ties around the scabbard. it really keeps teh scabard in place and would be more correct for your persona

I am thinking over the shield. I think you are ok with a heater, but a kite is an option too :) or even a flat topped kite.

Silvanus

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Re: Late 12th / Early 13th Century Kit
« Reply #14 on: 2009-09-07, 19:41:21 »
Thank you, Sir Edward. I will remove the plates from the gauntlets this week, and come up with a mail-extension for the forearms. As for the sword frog problem, I may order the belt today, but will try something else first, using another belt. All this advice is very exciting!