How sharp should a sword be?

[Sir Nate]

How well should a sword cut? How sharp should it be? 
I am wondering because I own an albion, and while it cuts fruit very well, I desired to try it on my old Gambeson. Well I have found, a thrust has a lot of struggle to penetrate it, and a cut does absolutely nothing. I can't cut through any cloth material with it, even when I draw my cuts.
Also on a note, albion tells me they charge 50 for a re sharpening. IF anyone on here has sword sharpening experience PM me.

[Sir Douglas]

Then that means the gambeson’s working. Remember that it’s armor, and the whole point to armor is to not let stuff get through it. As I understand it, a lot of the damage you would be inflicting on an armored opponent is going to be blunt trauma. You're not going to slice a fully-armored man from stem to stern like in the movies.

I don't really know how much you use your sword or in what manner, but if it's a relatively new sword and still cuts fruit fine, I'm going to guess it probably doesn't need sharpened. Just don't be disappointed if it doesn't cut like a lightsaber (or katana...lulz ). If you absolutely think it does need sharpened, I would definitely recommend making sure you know what you're doing before taking a stone to an $800 Albion. I know just from sharpening my carving tools that it's easy to screw up an edge if you don't know what you're doing.

[Sir James A]

Fruits are a relatively easy cut. Albion doesn't automatically mean sharp. My Albion came as sharp as a butter knife.

If you can't cut fabric even with a draw cut, it's too dull for modern practical cutting purposes. My Albion Talhoffer was sharpened to 1,000 grit; my HEMA instructors is all the way down to 1,500 grit and it's quite a difference (higher number grit = finer edge). His is the proverbial "3 foot razor blade".

There are alllll sorts of things like secondary bevels, edge type, grit level, passes/courses, and more, for sharpening swords. Like Sir Douglas said, it's easy to screw up an edge if you don't know what you're doing with it. As for pricing, $50 isn't a bad price to get it professionally sharpened.

[Ian]

What Albion do you have?  Not all swords are intended to be thrusters either.  For thrusting blade shape matters a lot more than sharpness.  A lenticular tip of a viking sword is not intended for thrusting as an example, while the awl shaped diamond cross-section reinforced tip of my Albion Poitiers type XV is almost a dedicated thrusting sword.

And yes, Sir Douglas is right, if a sword cut right through a gambeson like a T-Shirt, than that gambeson is completely useless.  Swords are not lightsabers.  As for the type of edge you should put on your sword, historically that varied greatly so there's no right way to do it.  Secondary bevels exist historically as do 'appleseed' edges.

Will your sword cut the fabric of your gambeson when you draw it across the outer layer, or are you just whacking at it like you would a watermelon? 

[Sir Nate]

What Albion do you have?  Not all swords are intended to be thrusters either.  For thrusting blade shape matters a lot more than sharpness.  A lenticular tip of a viking sword is not intended for thrusting as an example, while the awl shaped diamond cross-section reinforced tip of my Albion Poitiers type XV is almost a dedicated thrusting sword.

And yes, Sir Douglas is right, if a sword cut right through a gambeson like a T-Shirt, than that gambeson is completely useless.  Swords are not lightsabers.  As for the type of edge you should put on your sword, historically that varied greatly so there's no right way to do it.  Secondary bevels exist historically as do 'appleseed' edges.

Will your sword cut the fabric of your gambeson when you draw it across the outer layer, or are you just whacking at it like you would a watermelon? 

Outer layer. It can't even cut a T shirt.
It's the Albion hospitaller, and while it can stab through really thin cloth pretty easily, a shirt gives it a lot of trouble.
Maybe I'll just get professionally sharpened. I had asked the FB page Dimicator and he said he has many Albions that came with, unsatisfactory edges that he had to sharpen himself.

Then that means the gambeson’s working. Remember that it’s armor, and the whole point to armor is to not let stuff get through it. As I understand it, a lot of the damage you would be inflicting on an armored opponent is going to be blunt trauma. You're not going to slice a fully-armored man from stem to stern like in the movies.

I don't really know how much you use your sword or in what manner, but if it's a relatively new sword and still cuts fruit fine, I'm going to guess it probably doesn't need sharpened. Just don't be disappointed if it doesn't cut like a lightsaber (or katana...lulz ). If you absolutely think it does need sharpened, I would definitely recommend making sure you know what you're doing before taking a stone to an $800 Albion. I know just from sharpening my carving tools that it's easy to screw up an edge if you don't know what you're doing.

Good
Point.
I wasn't planning on sharpening it myself, I only did that with my war spike crap sword. And while it was sharp, the edge looked awful. Especially in comparison to my
Albion.

Another bonus I think to getting
It sharpened is that there are some scratches I can't get out of the blade that have been there since I opened it up.
$50 is sounding better and better already.

[Henrik Granlid]

This might be helpful
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=31395

Allong with some cutting tests of various weapons by Thegnthrand, Skallagrim and Schola Gladiatora on YouTube as well as their discussions on the topic.

The long and short of it is that even a rudimentary layer of linnen doesn't cut well as a target.

[Sir Nate]

This might be helpful
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=31395

Allong with some cutting tests of various weapons by Thegnthrand, Skallagrim and Schola Gladiatora on YouTube as well as their discussions on the topic.

The long and short of it is that even a rudimentary layer of linnen doesn't cut well as a target.

Thank you.
I also went into more exploration of it, and using an apple and Some padding, the blade leaves a good indent in the apple. Then adding mail over it, the blade left a lot less trauma in the apple.
But that raises the question, if my blade is as sharp as it should be, what was the need of havin a whole sharpened blade on the battle field if it can't cut through padding, and thrusting only penetrates the first few layers, I'm still leaving trauma, but the blade wouldn't need to be as sharp as it is to do this(would it? Or does the edge make a huge difference in trauma?)
So now I'm questioning three things.
1. Is my sword still not as sharp as it should be
2. Where their still many opponents that didn't have padding for armor(couldn't afford it) and that a sword can cut through with the blade. 3. I'm not testing properly.

[Henrik Granlid]

A sword is a sidearm, not a primary weapon. Once you drop your pollaxe or break your lance, you're gonna need something, and a three foot iron bar with every inch of it being designed to murder people is a good choice.

Swords were often used on people in civilian garb, or on people with little to no armour, where the long edge comes to a great effect. Also, as soon as something is exposed on your oponent, the entire length of the sword can be brought to bear.

But yeah, swords weren't a primary armament for dealing with armour, pole-weapons were, both amongst the rich and the poor. And yeah, there are going to be lightly or unarmoured soldiers on the field as well, at least well into the 14th century. Knights were armoured because they were rich. Those of lesser status who weren't supplied by their lord would need to get their armour themselves, and in a time where the shield was the primary defense, they were far more likely to have a helmet than a maille.

Also do take into account that you are not a profesional soldier who's used to murdering people with your sword, as such, tests by you may or may not be skewed.

[Sir Nate]

A sword is a sidearm, not a primary weapon. Once you drop your pollaxe or break your lance, you're gonna need something, and a three foot iron bar with every inch of it being designed to murder people is a good choice.

Swords were often used on people in civilian garb, or on people with little to no armour, where the long edge comes to a great effect. Also, as soon as something is exposed on your oponent, the entire length of the sword can be brought to bear.

But yeah, swords weren't a primary armament for dealing with armour, pole-weapons were, both amongst the rich and the poor. And yeah, there are going to be lightly or unarmoured soldiers on the field as well, at least well into the 14th century. Knights were armoured because they were rich. Those of lesser status who weren't supplied by their lord would need to get their armour themselves, and in a time where the shield was the primary defense, they were far more likely to have a helmet than a maille.

Also do take into account that you are not a profesional soldier who's used to murdering people with your sword, as such, tests by you may or may not be skewed.

Hey, Ill get some fleshy dummy one day.
Actually I have a bit of a big dumb dumb to announce. I'm cutting through the padding fine now….. easily…. Magic?
Nay.
Well I have the padding on a cardboard pole, and the sword when I hit and draw a little, cuts through the padding. The padding, Is a layer of some sturdy modern material(canvas'y) filled with foam. The sword cuts through all of it.

Also a point on the 12th to mid 13th century (Morgan picture bible) Most of the Cavalry is depicted wielding swords. More slashing designed blades. And in the 12th century Swords weren't really available to more people. Definitely Later you go more and more swords are around, and most people can afford a sword as a side arm. Swords are also more designed for thrusting in the later periods(many)
So they are not as bulky ( or as main a weapon?) as earlier swords.
Light use of bulky… like blade heavier…
(I may be wrong on some info, Please someone correct me if I am wrong. Or if what I said is accurate, I get a "Sounds good" (Y)
Wide sword requires 5 Strength, and Spike blade requires 3?
Thus your character can't carry two weapons.

[Thorsteinn]

Your sword should be sharp enough to cut the sin from your enemies heart. 

Have you sen the cutting and stabbing tests that Mike Loades did in Weapons That made Britain?

[Henrik Granlid]

Actually....


Here you see the initial charge being done with lances, after which swords and axes come out. You can even see a front-line knight who hasn't had the time to draw his sword yet.

In the early middle ages, up to pretty much the 13th or 14th century, the primary weapon of the not wealthy was the spear, the wealthy used the lance. Axes and swords were secondary weapons. Once plate starts entering into the game, the primary weapons start to transition to polearms for foot soldiers.


As far as blade heft, a blade-heavy sword builds a better momentum when slaughtering people on the ground from horseback and chopps nicely. A pointed sword is a lot better for wresting into an opponents armpit or, in an emergency, using as a Friggin lance.

(there is a wonderful picture out there displaying a knight tucking his longsword under his arm for use as a lance)

[Sir William]

How well should a sword cut? How sharp should it be? 
I am wondering because I own an albion, and while it cuts fruit very well, I desired to try it on my old Gambeson. Well I have found, a thrust has a lot of struggle to penetrate it, and a cut does absolutely nothing. I can't cut through any cloth material with it, even when I draw my cuts.
Also on a note, albion tells me they charge 50 for a re sharpening. IF anyone on here has sword sharpening experience PM me.

Depends on what the sword was built for- the type of armament, I mean.  You have the Hospitaller, a 12th C sword that was built for the cut (hack, slash, etc)- it of course can thrust but it wasn't made for that and the flex in the blade will tell you that if you thrust against something reasonably static.  No surprise that it doesn't thrust well- but it should do well in the cut.  As others have stated, there are any number of reasons why your sword didn't perform as you expected, largely due to user error as you yourself noted.  Nice sword, try to take good care of it, eh? 

[Sir Nate]

How well should a sword cut? How sharp should it be? 
I am wondering because I own an albion, and while it cuts fruit very well, I desired to try it on my old Gambeson. Well I have found, a thrust has a lot of struggle to penetrate it, and a cut does absolutely nothing. I can't cut through any cloth material with it, even when I draw my cuts.
Also on a note, albion tells me they charge 50 for a re sharpening. IF anyone on here has sword sharpening experience PM me.

Depends on what the sword was built for- the type of armament, I mean.  You have the Hospitaller, a 12th C sword that was built for the cut (hack, slash, etc)- it of course can thrust but it wasn't made for that and the flex in the blade will tell you that if you thrust against something reasonably static.  No surprise that it doesn't thrust well- but it should do well in the cut.  As others have stated, there are any number of reasons why your sword didn't perform as you expected, largely due to user error as you yourself noted.  Nice sword, try to take good care of it, eh? 

I will.

Actually....


Here you see the initial charge being done with lances, after which swords and axes come out. You can even see a front-line knight who hasn't had the time to draw his sword yet.

In the early middle ages, up to pretty much the 13th or 14th century, the primary weapon of the not wealthy was the spear, the wealthy used the lance. Axes and swords were secondary weapons. Once plate starts entering into the game, the primary weapons start to transition to polearms for foot soldiers.


As far as blade heft, a blade-heavy sword builds a better momentum when slaughtering people on the ground from horseback and chopps nicely. A pointed sword is a lot better for wresting into an opponents armpit or, in an emergency, using as a Friggin lance.

(there is a wonderful picture out there displaying a knight tucking his longsword under his arm for use as a lance)

Indeed. But there are many pictures where the swords are first drawn or the only weapon the knight seems to have




Which I think goes with my point, swords at this point since they still had wider blades towards the tip, would and could be used as a primary.

I think I will do more research on that though.

[Sir James A]

The knights also seem to have a couple of people of shorter stature on a rope leash. The crown makes me think king. And the random livestock makes me think that picture *might* be an after-battle spoils of war processional of sorts. They don't seem to be actively fighting.

The second picture, I'm not quite as sure. But remember artwork isn't an exact science. One guy had his helmet and skull split open, and this simple doesn't happen with swords.

And back to the original question; what were you cutting against where the sword did and did not cut? That's important.

[Ian]

One entirely important and often ignored point about using the Mac Bible as a resource.  It's a bible. 

It's depicting stories from the bible, and often uses exaggeration to depict heroic events, like cleaving helmets in half and slicing people in half through maille hauberks in one fell swoop.  The artist likely knew those things were not possible, but that's exactly why he painted them, to get the point across that these are biblical figures, not just ordinary knights and men-at-arms.

For example this isn't some 13th century knight in battle.  This is specifically David killing the 200 Philistines:



The crowned figure on the green horse is also King David in the other plate posted above.


It was just normal medieval convention to depict past events using contemporary material culture.  So even though the Mac Bible shows events from 1200+ years earlier, everyone's in contemporary clothing and armor.**

** - that convention holds true a majority of the time, but there are exceptions where they did try to depict older style objects when depicting historical events