Help with a crusader Knight set

[Sir Hancz]

Hey guys, i'm looking for a crusader knight set that is realistic, and is quite affordable. I'm starting my first kit based on the crusades because its a cool time period, and it will be relatively cheap compared to the full plate armors. I was thinking something like a great helm, and some mail, with a sword and shield. A list of something realistic would be much appreciated! Thank you for your time gentlemen/women.

[Sir William]

Hmm...what do you consider affordable?  You can get decent maille from allbeststuff, as decent as can be had off the shelf, that is.  Full hauberk and coif (integral, not integral is a long running discussion).  If you can figure out how much you want to spend on it all, it'll be easier to decide which way to go.  Take the sword, for instance- there's a good selection of Crusades-era blades (depending on which Crusade you're looking to portray) and prices range from $100 on up; mine is an Albion Arn sword dubbed 'IRAE' with a DBK custom scabbard, for which I paid $1850 (1000 for sword, 850 for scabbard), which doesn't include shipping, by the way.  The Windlass Classic Medieval Sword is a pretty decent option and you can usually get it on the cheap if you keep an eye out.  Full price is $195 on MRL's site but you can get it for less.  A stout type X with a curved flattened cross, single hand grip, wheel pommel, peened construction.  A good sword.  So that covers maille and sword, you'll also need your surcoat and cloak which you should have no problems sourcing, there's a lot out there to choose from.  For a helm, you'll want to drill down which Crusade you're going for because armor changed over the course of the Crusades.  1st Crusaders would've been wearing simple nasal helms, some spangen style with no nasal would've been present.  What else?  Prick spurs, not rowels...ankle boots (even though I wear tall boots, its anachronistic, not historical).  And of course, your under garments- linen is most comfortable and you'd need a coif, tunic, braes, hosen for next to skin.  Now, I like to wear a lightly padded gambeson over that to help deal with the weight of my maille but there's been discussion on whether or not they were worn then, if at all.  It makes it more comfortable for me, ymmv.  I use Oakheart Armoury for my shield needs- they can set up blanks or full-on custom and pretty much anything in between.  Early crusades would've been Norman kite/tear drop style, heater style came later...no rounds, so far as I know.

As you know, the more historically accurate you want it to be, the more expensive it can get- it all depends on how far you want to go down that road (and how much of your pocket you'd like to empty).  Good luck!

[Mike W.]

This is a list of the basics you'll need for a kit (circa 1187)

SOFT KIT:
•   St. Louis Shirt
•   Braies
•   Hose
•   Tunic
•   Coif
•   Surcoat
•   Cloak
•   Gambeson
•   Arming Cap
•   Felt Cap
•   Turn Shoes/Boots

HARD KIT:
•   Maille Hauberk with integral coif and mittens - Flat Wire Riveted (dome riveted) with alternateFlat Ring Solid
•   Maille Chausses - Flat Wire Riveted (dome riveted) with alternate Flat Ring Solid
•   Transitional Pot Helm
•   Flat-Top Kite Shield

WEAPONS:
•   Oakeschott Type XII with Scabbard
•   Spear
•   Dagger

ACCOUTREMENTS:
•   Belt (preferably brown, no more than 1" wide)
•   Varius pouches
•   Water container (skin, gourd, pottery)
•   Spurs (short pricks)

ACCESSORIES:
•   Pennon
•   Pater Noster
•   Utility Knife
•   Cross necklace

[Ian]

Give us a more specific time period.  Crusades covers multiple centuries, and kits changed significantly over the course of those centuries, and by location.

[Sir Hancz]

Give us a more specific time period.  Crusades covers multiple centuries, and kits changed significantly over the course of those centuries, and by location.

I was thinking the third crusade.

[Ian]

Well with the good info in Sir William's post and Baron de Magnan's list they certainly gave you a great starting point for Third Crusade.

[Mike W.]

This kit is dated to 1244 (Sixth Crusade) though, it's not much different from a Third Crusade kit (1189-1192).

1244 mounted knight, Siege of Jerusalem



1 Gonfanon – a banner that was used after the Norman conquest and displayed on the end of a spear or flag pole
2 Kettle helmet - broad brimmed with lots of ventilation and good visibility
3 Helmet with a curved face plate, which came into use after the Siege of Antioch, which took place during the First Crusade in 1097 and 1098
4 Sword belt
5 Shield with a flat top
6 Necklace
7 White cloth with a snip for cutting small items, a leather box of needles and a roll of thread fire steel a flint and tinder for starting a fire
8 Wooden bowl and cup, ceramic cup and a wooden spoon
9 Knife and sheaf for cutting food. There were no forks in this time period – people used spoons to eat soup or porridge, and a knife to eat meat
10 Water bottle made of leather and soaked in pitch
11 Script bag
12 Leather boots– finished just below the calf with the laces wrapped around boots
13 Gauntlet – leather gloves
14 Linen Shirt
15 Socks – made using the technique nålebinding, where long lengths of wool are woven into long thin braids, starting at toe
16 Battle dress – red tunic worn next to the body; linen canvus padded jacket, chaine maille and blue and yellow surcoat
17 Belt – made using the technique of tablet weaving, a very archaic form of weaving
18 Rosary beads
19 Belt
20 Woollen cloak shaped like semi circle - waterproof and wind proof and used for travelling
21 Glaive - a new invention for the time, the weapon was originally made from a broken sword with a new piece of wood welded on
22 Sword
23 Dagger
24 Crescent-shaped axe
25 Flanged mace
26 Thigh-length, sleeveless leather vest, which buckled down back and had metal plates inside. This was top of the range body armour for the period
28 Maille to cover the legs and linen covering that went to the mid thigh - in this time period trousers don’t yet exist so the pieces of material covering the leg and groin are two different pieces
27 Straps to attach maille legs

[Sir Nate]

This is a transitional Late 12th- mid 13th century Helmet. (GDFB)
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0359&name=Crusader+Flat+Top+Helm

 a Kettle Helm.
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SNH2212&name=XIII+Century+Kettle+Helm (GDFB)

Here is allbestuff mail
http://allbeststuff.com/c-medieval-chainmail-armor

You will also want to be sure to buy a coif with a Ventail. It is the mail flap on the coif. (Wether it's use is to protect the mouth or more so the chin, I am not sure)

Intergrated or non intergrated mail like Sir William said, is discussed. Though intergrated mail I "Think" Is much more common for 12th and 13th centuries.

The Albion Hospitaller, Is acceptable for 12th to mid 13th century.
While the albion Templar blade is mid to late 13th.
The Ritter next to the Albion Hospitaller is 12th.
http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/swords-albion-mark-nextgen.htm#Single-Handed

On a Note for All best stuff mail, you can request some size changes on the hauberks and for the sleeves to Taper on the hauberks. Nitin is very easy to work with.
Clothing at the time was wool or linen. I've heard that linen is much more common in the middle east, but I have no source to back that up.

In kingdom of heaven....(cough)

The first Coat of plates aren't seen until mid 13th.

Like sir William said there is some Debate as well on padding. We know they had it by mid 13th century due to the Morgan picture bible.


Realistically, you can scroll through google images looking at different pictures from it or buy modern reproductions of the book for kit help.

More on the debate of padding.
Some historians argue that they had padding underneath as far back as 1066 since their argument is that the cuff or cloth poking out from beneath the hauberk is a padded gambeson.


There are no findings of a padded gambeson before 13th century.

Mail chausses
Aren't in common use until mid 12th, and then they only covered the front of the legs. By the 13th century they covered the front and back.
Leg armor in the 13th century one can see can have The Chausses, then padding over the chausses with a knee pad called cuisses. that covered a bit past the knee. Then Steel half greaves/Demi greas/Early greaves or just shin plates came around mid 13th. century.  Although Gerald of wales mentions the use of greaves in the 12th century. http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1444538&pageno=17

[Sir William]

Baron, I've never seen a 13th C panoply laid out like that before- thank you for posting!  It is right smack in the era I'm looking to portray this year.  I doubt I'll be able to collect it all, but I'll get a good bit of it.  That early coat of plates, that's period?  Exciting if so.

[Sir Nate]

William Coat of plates appear by mid 12th.
http://www.arador.com/armour/coat-of-plates/

Here William at 9:00  Mike Loades says the effigy dates to the 1230's

[Sir William]

Thank you, Naythan- good stuff!

[Mike W.]

The Albion Hospitaller, Is acceptable for 12th to mid 13th century.
While the albion Templar blade is mid to late 13th.
The Ritter next to the Albion Hospitaller is 12th.

Not sure where you got your dates from but they are WAY off.

The Albion Hospitaller and Ritter are interpretations of the Oakeshott Type XI. The Type XI was dominant during the 12th century. It was most common from 1120-1175, with some a few examples going as far back as 1080 and as late as 1210.

The Albion Templar is an interpretation of the Oakeshott Type Xa. This type was most common during the late Viking age but saw use up to the mid-13th century.

Make sure you keep up on your fact checking.

[Sir Nate]

The Albion Hospitaller, Is acceptable for 12th to mid 13th century.
While the albion Templar blade is mid to late 13th.
The Ritter next to the Albion Hospitaller is 12th.

Not sure where you got your dates from but they are WAY off.

The Albion Hospitaller and Ritter are interpretations of the Oakeshott Type XI. The Type XI was dominant during the 12th century. It was most common from 1120-1175, with some a few examples going as far back as 1080 and as late as 1210.

The Albion Templar is an interpretation of the Oakeshott Type Xa. This type was most common during the late Viking age but saw use up to the mid-13th century.

Make sure you keep up on your fact checking.

Albion site says the ritter is early 13th century.
looking through these, I actually see that most of the type XII's are found from French manuscripts. While the English they look like the Hospitallers(Same with Germany, although with germany I see more variation(Like that of the ritter)

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=1200&year_end=1260&country=4&country=12&country=3&country=8&country=9&country=2&country=15&country=34&country=24&country=7&tags=&manuscript=

I still think the swords in the Morgan bible (the majority) are type XI's.

Now here interesting ones from france and... I see both a type XII and XI
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4107/12174/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4975/15451/
Ritter pommel and type XII
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4107/12185/

(Btw when I say type XI, I mean a sword resembling the Hospitaller, and a sword Resembling the Albion 13th century knightly sword).

And doing more research, yes I see that after (pff, say 1230?) The type XII is definitely the norm.
Yet strangely the Morgan bible seems to show the Disc pommel as the Norm.
I still will argue the Hospitaller is fine for early 13th.
Make me say no later than 1210....

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=&tags=&country=4&country=12&country=3&country=8&country=9&country=2&country=15&country=34&country=24&country=7&year_end=1260&year=1200&page=3

[Sir Nate]

Baron if you want to see more of my research, just give me your email and Ill share it with you via gmail.
(although Looking at more manuscripts, my older research is more of me just arguing with myself)

[Ian]

Naythan, you may be confusing your sword typology a bit.  Oakeshott typology is specific to blade geometry.  It is not coupled with hilting and pommel typology.  So a type X blade may have a lobed viking style pommel or a brazil nut pommel later on, and then a wheel pommel.  And they overlap in time as well.

So looking through a manuscript at pommel shapes doesn't tell you much about the oakeshott blade typology directly.  You seem to want to make a direct correlation between the two, but it doesn't work that way. 

Type XII swords are some of the most common blade types and they last hundreds of years, with all different and changing hilt configurations and pommel shapes.

Also, blade profiles don't tell you the whole story, and that's really all you can see in manuscripts.  Profile taper may be similar between two blade types, if you can't see or reasonably make an educated guess at cross-section, and fuller shapes you again don't have the whole picture.