Buying/wearing Mail

[Aiden of Oreland]

So I am beginning to put some cash aside for some mail armor. I plan to get a set of mail that includes a coif, hauberk with integrated mittens, and mail chausses. I want to get it in 8/9mm rings and alternating rings(round ring + flat ring riveted). Preferably 16/17 gauge steel with a natural finish. I have been eyeing up an item in particular on allbeststuff. Who I have so far have heard great things about, especially since my brother ordered an impressive hauberk from them. Then work on placing leather mittens, likely chopper mittens from Amazon, and using some sort of leather lace to lace them to the mail. I haven't decided on the actual slit on the palm of the mittens yet. I have considered verticle being my best bet.

The reason I have chosen this particular style of mail is because from what I have gathered is that it has been used in both the 12th and 13th century's, and the super hauberk even being seen in the turn/early 14th century with some addition of plate armor. So buying this mail opens me up to a few centuries worth of kits.

So, for one thing I'd like to know what a TRUE tailored hauberk looks like. I have seen a photo of one before, but I cannot seem to relocate it. But from what I remember, it was an authentic piece. Instead of a straight arm, for example, the elbow had a sort of extension on it and many other triangular/diamond shaped mail parts on the hauberk. If anyone could possibly show me an image of this well tailored, original, hauberk is be most grateful. Or any picture showing it really. For I would like to attempt and see how far allbeststuff will go to tailor mail for me.

Secondly, besides the padded arming wear, what is necessary to actually WEAR it. I have been told and have seen images of multiple points or garter style leathers through the hauberk and chausses. Supposedly it immensely reduces the weight of the mail armor. Though, I do not know the name for these leather ties and laces. I only know of wearing a belt to reduce the weight of the mail waste down. If I could get some pointers on what they are called and what I should buy/to make them for my mail.

In addition to the tailoring, how should I measure it for my body? Should I give them exact body measurements or add some inches for the padding?

Lastly, I cannot seem to figure out the best way to wear mail chausses. I have seen pictures where the chausses are pointed or attached to the braies like the regular wool chausses, but I'm skeptical about this. I would assume that there is a better way to wear them. Would they be attached to a belt like padded cuisses are? Also, I do not know how to properly attach the mail that is on the foot to the turn shoes. All I know is that there is some sort of lacing that is done underneath.

I hope to order the full suit of mail before the summer rolls around so that it can hopefully be made and completed before September.

*Internet is slow, I will add a link of the particular product when it works again

[Sir Douglas]

Secondly, besides the padded arming wear, what is necessary to actually WEAR it. I have been told and have seen images of multiple points or garter style leathers through the hauberk and chausses. Supposedly it immensely reduces the weight of the mail armor.

I just take a couple of leather thongs and run them around my knees just below my kneecap and just above my calf muscles. It helps keep them from sagging. A strip around the forehead helps keep the coif in place. I've seen some guys put some around the wrists and/or arms as well.

In addition to the tailoring, how should I measure it for my body? Should I give them exact body measurements or add some inches for the padding?

Your best bet with that would probably be to ask whoever is doing the tailoring what measurements they want. I don't really know how allbeststuff does their...uh...stuff.

Lastly, I cannot seem to figure out the best way to wear mail chausses.

Heh...the immortal question. Check out this thread for some ideas. Watch Sir Ian's video in which he explains the mechanics of why a pourpoint-type garment works the way it does, then read on until at least the second page where I come up with my arming girdle thing. Those methods are much more comfortable than a belt. A pourpoint vest isn't really historical for your particular time period, but a lot of guys use them anyway. I've actually seen a couple other people start to adopt the girdle method lately as well.

[Sir James A]

You can't reasonably buy TRUE tailored mail. The torsos are tube-like, the sleeves may taper, but they don't have the proper angles or shapes either. If you REALLY want completely tailored mail, your best bet is to buy a pre-fab shirt and start cutting and redoing, or doing it from scratch yourself.

Wade Allen has some authentic 16th century mail sleeves. Here's one:

http://www.allenantiques.com/M-16.html

The one on the notebook with the white ty-wraps is one that Mac marked up for copying with the India producers. Couldn't get enough buy-in, so it never happened. And that's just the sleeves, tapering and flaring the body is a whole other thing. The easier way is chopping and making gussets; the proper way is expanding and contracting rows, which means *lots* of cutting and re-riveting.

The AllBestStuff maille is pretty good out of the box, and I think only the mail-centric people or mail makers would notice much, if any, difference.

[Aiden of Oreland]

Well Douglas, that is a great option. One thing I did consider though was converting to the use of either a loin cloth (held up by a belt) or regular braies with a garter style belt in it rather than a string. I saw Ian, I believe it was, make a post about this and I belive this would make a, not perfect, but perhaps more accurate solution to the problem. This also keeps me from needing to wear a belt AND braies strings. I do think well fitted padded cuisses would reduce the weight of the mail chausses as well. Though, that much weight in the belt may not work to well and may be uncomfortable. I have a feeling that I may result in experimenting with different techniques that could dodge the criticism of hard core reenactors while looking for a solution to a big problem. Though, Ian's demonstration of the pour point is highly convincing and is definitely something I'd consider if I do a later kit. Or perhaps I should consider what the pour point developed from, perhaps a previous idea used for Mail chausses? Who can say...

Well Sir James, since the mittens are integrated I may be able to pull off the look of a well tapered sleeve if I use thongs like Douglas suggested at the wrists, arms and legs. I mean I did consider that not every smith back in the day made mail perfectly and probably did have designs much like modern mail. Also I think that may be the images I was thinking of James.

Also, I may need suggestions on how to have a proper aventail. Most of the market stuff seems to be not fitted right and thus not properly fitting.

[Sir Ulrich]

I stopped using padded chausses with my maille ones. To be frank it made it too hot for me to wear armor regularly. I just use a pair of wool socks under my regular ones and my maille is wedge riveted so it doesnt wear down my chausses being completely flush on the inside. Joe Metz does a similar thing and to be honest it works better for me. At DoK 3 I had no problems with being overheated like I usually do. I would recommend if you get them for them to be a bit thinner though I doubt your maille chausses would be as small as mine if you're getting ABS ones. I do recommend round ring riveted maille over the flat ring riveted. It's softer on the gambeson and it with alternating you dont have to worry about rivets coming out as often. You can also ask ABS to taper the sleeves to a certain inch width so I would recommend that. Unless you wanna do it yourself which is a huge pain with wedge riveting though dome riveted mailles easy to rivet. A pourpoint is much better than a C belt, my old C belt was too big for me and I couldnt sit down properly with it, hence why I sold it. You can easily do what Doug did with a bit of fabric and easily tie them down. I do recommend making the feet on the chausses smaller than the shoe ever so slightly, if it's too large for the foot they will flop around and come undone. Now that mine are properly tailored they stayed right for hours on end. Garters on mine worked fine too, you could use leather ties but I like the look of garters more, especially with them matching my heraldry, I know a maker who could make you a pair of them for a good price.

[Sir James A]

Garters on mine worked fine too, you could use leather ties but I like the look of garters more, especially with them matching my heraldry, I know a maker who could make you a pair of them for a good price.

The garters idea sounds neat, do you have pics? Did you take it off an effigy or historical source?

[Aiden of Oreland]

Garters on mine worked fine too, you could use leather ties but I like the look of garters more, especially with them matching my heraldry, I know a maker who could make you a pair of them for a good price.

The garters idea sounds neat, do you have pics? Did you take it off an effigy or historical source?

Are you referring to the belt/garter braies or for the chausses? If you were wandering what I was talking about it was in reference to this:  http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,3427.0.html

*EDIT: This was the mail I was interested in buying: http://allbeststuff.com/c-medieval-chainmail-armor/c-chain-mail-shirt-coif-set/Round-Riveted-Links-with-Solid-Washers-Chain-Mail-Full-Suit-Body-Armor

[Sir Ulrich]

They're around my lower legs in this pic and are visible. I am not sure if they were used historically but it's a lot more sightly than random leather straps. Adam Carnahan on facebook helped me get them and they work quite well.

EDIT, Yeah Aiden, that one should be fine. Just be sure to ask for a leather palm for the integrated mittens or you'll be stuck with maille on the palms. I almost want to pick myself up a set of that maille just to see the quality of how their hauberks with integrated mittens and coifs look. Pull off something similar to what Frater Rogerson did at DoK, rather than my usual 1270s kit. Still have yet to find a decent source for a historical early great helm with the face plate only. Everywhere I see seems to sell them with back plates and the GDFB ones I hate, they're too heavy.

[Sir James A]

Thanks Ulrich, that red/black/white really syncs up nicely with your heraldry. Looks good!