Desiging my kit

[Eva de Carduus Weald]

I hope I am putting this in the right place. My persona is 1356 British lady who fights like a man so, I think I know what would work but wanted to be sure. I was thinking chainmail shirt maybe with coif, plate full arms, plate gauntlets, plate full legs, and maybe plate boot coverings (this depends). Not sure if I want a helmet yet or not, that will probably be last thing I get. So I assume gambeson will be needed but what else? And does this all fit within my period? This will be a LOOOOOONG process to get all of this by the by so what order I should get it in would also be helpful. I plan to get a kit for making my own chainmail, (I know you can make your own rings and such but I don't really feel like courting eye injury or the blisters.) I could also make a chainmail leg pair but not sure if that would be good or not, I think it depends on how much of a pain in the butt the shirt is.

[Sir James A]

Have a look at http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,3058.0.html and http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,3207.0.html, between those two threads it should answer half of your questions

For specific time periods, the style of plate armor varies over a few centuries, so getting the proper fashion is important. Take a look at these two sites:

effigiesandbrasses.com
manuscriptminiatures.com

You can see historical examples by time and region to narrow down what you want, and decide if you want to be extremely historically accurate, or a more loose interpretation

[Eva de Carduus Weald]

Awesome thank you! I actually don't know that you can be too historically accurate because all we can really go by are paintings and tapestries. I mean heck, individual fashion would depend on what you could afford too. The extremely wealthy could ride the tide of fashion but those less wealthy generally had to use Dad or Grand-dad's armor. Just couldn't really go for more modern I suppose. Of course without knowing when exactly the changes came about you could easily say you lived in the same place that first armorsmith came up with the new design. *shrugs* depending on how close the time period is I guess you could make a reasonable argument for fashion either way. I think I had a brief look at those links but I will definitely have a closer one!

[Ian]

Awesome thank you! I actually don't know that you can be too historically accurate because all we can really go by are paintings and tapestries. I mean heck, individual fashion would depend on what you could afford too. The extremely wealthy could ride the tide of fashion but those less wealthy generally had to use Dad or Grand-dad's armor. Just couldn't really go for more modern I suppose. Of course without knowing when exactly the changes came about you could easily say you lived in the same place that first armorsmith came up with the new design. *shrugs* depending on how close the time period is I guess you could make a reasonable argument for fashion either way. I think I had a brief look at those links but I will definitely have a closer one!

We actually know almost certainly what would have been worn in period.  There's no such thing as a poor knight in the 1300's.  Knights were the 1% of their time and wouldn't wear out of fashion armor if they could help it (ransom comes to mind).  Poorer folks, like people not of gentle birth might wear what they could scrounge or afford, but if they were in service to a knight or higher lord, he would outfit his retainers appropriately.

  We not only have artistic evidence like you described, but effigies.  Effigies are alabaster carvings commissioned by knights and their families to accurately represent the man in his funeral achievements.  They are meticulously carved down to the links in the maille.  That combined with a plethora of documentary evidence in inventories, and archaeological extant finds give us a very good idea what people were wearing.

Your period in particular, the mid 1300's, has some of the largest extant finds of any period.  The grave finds from the Battle of Visby give us an unprecedented level of information in armor for the early 1360s, especially for less wealthy men-at-arms.

The second link that James gave you above is a good starting point for building specifically a historically accurate kit.  My hobby is Living History, which strives to be as accurate as historical knowledge will allow.  Everything we wear down to the rivets and buttons on our kits have to be documented to period as much as is practicable.  It's an arduous undertaking, but the rewards are great when you've got a full kit.  The knowledge is definitely out there to go as historically accurate as you want, but some people don't find the tedium interesting.  So it's not that we can't be historically accurate, but that it's really just not worth the time for some people depending on what they're seeking from this hobby

[Eva de Carduus Weald]

Ah thank you for the correction, I didn't realize that about knights being as wealthy as all that. I will have to think long and hard about what I want to do with my kit. I guess my next question then will be in the effigies, what is the short coat over the mail? I thought a tabard would be worn in this period but that doesn't look long enough to be a tabard. I also am curious as it looks like you go from that coat over chain to brestplate within just a few years. for 1356 would I want to go brestplate or coat over mail? Ultimately I mean as this will take a long time to get together.

As for how much research I want to do, I think that depends on if I am in a researching mood or a blagh sort of mood at any given time.

[Ian]

The consensus is that there is a coat of plates or solid breastplate under that coat.  So from inside out it's a shirt -> arming doublet -> maille shirt -> breastplate or coat of plates -> jupon.

The jupon, or surcoat, is a tightly fitted coat that covers the breastplate in order to display your heraldry.  It was a fashion thing that would go out of style around 1415 when they stopped covering their armor and thus was born the 'White Harness,' because it was uncovered and the steel showed.

The reason it's believed there's a breastplate under those coats you're seeing mid to late 14th century is because they exist in inventories, they exist in archaeological finds and on statues, and if you look closely at the effigies they all have a very tight waist with a very orb like globose chest.  This is consistent with the style of breastplate that existed at the time.

That tight jupon is also an English thing.  The French had a version with short sleeves, other countries followed regional styles.

Browse that website I provided in my guide:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com

Also http://manuscriptminiatures.com is another excellent resource for illuminated manuscripts searchable by the same parameters, as is http://armourinart.com
You can search by time and region to help narrow down what you like stylistically.

Of course all of this is for naught if you're not after a living history quality kit.  In the SCA you can certainly fully enjoy all the SCA has to offer without being as anal about your kit as living historians are.  We just find the detail in the kit to be the fun of it as ours is largely a educational endeavor, but no such requirements exist in the SCA.

If historical accuracy is something you're interested in, this research you're starting now is the best first step.  The biggest pitfall is wanting to buy buy buy before research research research.  It's a very costly and heartbreaking pitfall.  If you have any questions on my guide please ask.  I intended it for the person new to this hobby, so feedback from someone in your position would be greatly appreciated.  It's also kind of a good litmus test to determine if your interest lies in that level of historical accuracy in the first place.

[Lord Dane]

Play it smart. Wait til the battle is over & steal the armor from the losers laying dead on the battleground. Looting is only as bad as not being first one there to get the best stuff. LOL

[Sir Rodney]

You underestimate the power of the Dark Side 14th Century. If you will not fight submit, then you will meet your destiny.

[Eva de Carduus Weald]

I will definitely have a closer look at the links! I didn't realize that they had a coat of plates under the surcoat or a brestplate. I will have to invest in that at some point but will do lots of research first. I figure what I will probably do is this. I already have a coathardie (I assume that is very like the arming coat?), so next would be to get/make the chain shirt and perhaps a sword that is a little less ornamentally non period and more utilitarian. I am sorely tempted to use the link I saw someone put on where they had a great chain shirt made to their specs. If the price is right I might go that method. Next would be chain legs. After that I would likely get arm plates, then leg plates, (I would probably make my surcoat during the time of the chain shirt, that I can do myself pretty easily but large enough to fit a brestplate beneath) then I would invest in brestplate and finally helmet. Maybe with a chain coif, maybe not. Not sure yet if that is the way I want to go.

To be honest I don't know if I will get the chance to go to living history but I would love to. I am not sure if I would qualify though because while there was the oddball woman in history who fought, most were good little women who popped out kids and stayed out of the way.

[Ian]

I will definitely have a closer look at the links! I didn't realize that they had a coat of plates under the surcoat or a brestplate. I will have to invest in that at some point but will do lots of research first. I figure what I will probably do is this. I already have a coathardie (I assume that is very like the arming coat?), so next would be to get/make the chain shirt and perhaps a sword that is a little less ornamentally non period and more utilitarian. I am sorely tempted to use the link I saw someone put on where they had a great chain shirt made to their specs. If the price is right I might go that method. Next would be chain legs. After that I would likely get arm plates, then leg plates, (I would probably make my surcoat during the time of the chain shirt, that I can do myself pretty easily but large enough to fit a brestplate beneath) then I would invest in brestplate and finally helmet. Maybe with a chain coif, maybe not. Not sure yet if that is the way I want to go.

To be honest I don't know if I will get the chance to go to living history but I would love to. I am not sure if I would qualify though because while there was the oddball woman in history who fought, most were good little women who popped out kids and stayed out of the way.

You definitely don't need maille legs for the mid 14th century.  They mostly went out of use after the 1st quarter of the 1300s as plate and splint became more common.

[Eva de Carduus Weald]

Ahhh that makes life much easier! Okay so next question, does anyone have a site to recommend for functional swords of my era?

[Sir James A]

Ahhh that makes life much easier! Okay so next question, does anyone have a site to recommend for functional swords of my era?

Depends heavily on intent and budget.

Albion and Arms & Armor are the top tier more common ones, with cost respectively, but they are incredibly hard to beat in accuracy, function  and feel unless going full custom

Darksword, Armor Class, Del Tin, and a few others are what I would say mid to upper-mid tier. Darksword you can get direct from them, Kult of Athena is a great place for most shopping, but be forewarned, their prices are good and their service is fantastic so you can go broke without noticing

If you just want something pretty without ever striking / cutting anything, there are tons of cheap "wall hangers" (typically stainless steel) on lots of sites

[Eva de Carduus Weald]

I don't know if I will ever want to do blade on blade combat so i would prefer a battle ready one. Saying that though I don't want to spend the $1,000 + that some of those beauties cost. I think mid-range will work well, thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction!

[Ian]

I don't know if I will ever want to do blade on blade combat so i would prefer a battle ready one. Saying that though I don't want to spend the $1,000 + that some of those beauties cost. I think mid-range will work well, thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction!

Hang on, are you looking for a sharp sword, a dull sword, or a sword suitable for sparring?  Three different things, three different costs (generally).

A sharp sword is exactly that, a dull sword is a sharp in every way but it just doesn't have the edge, a sword for sparring has a particularly thick edge, because even a dull sword can cut.  Sparring swords usually have edges thick enough to minimize the potential for injury.  All of these tools are a little different from each other, especially the sparring sword.  Even a high end sparring sword is generally about half to 3/4 the price of a historically accurate sharp.

[Eva de Carduus Weald]

Umm good question, I think a historically accurate sharp is what I really want. I for some reason seem drawn to that option.