A Knight and Love

[Sir Nate]

Very much of chivalry includes being very kind to women. In many story's and romanticized paintings knights are usually involved with a damsel of some sort.
If a knight does not have a lady or does not even know love. Will he truly be able to be a knight? In his community or just upholding the knightly code? It just seems to be something that is hand In hand.
It's a sketchy question.

[Sir Patrick]

Yes he is still a knight. Courtesy is a knightly virtue, being in love is not.  Much of what is described in art and poetry is courtly love, which is not a pure, knightly virtue by any means as it typically involves an adulterous relationship where one or both parties are married to another. For example, Guinevere and Lancelot had a courtly love. Here's a link to more info:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtly_love

[Sir Edward]

Let's also not forget all of the celibate orders of knights, such as the Templars.

[Sir Douglas]

Phew! I'm in the clear then. Maybe I should become a Templar.

Courtly love is certainly an...odd concept, if I understand it correctly. In theory, wasn't it basically the idea that a knight would love and pine after a lady he knew he could never have, usually because she/he/both were already married? It was considered a purer form of love or something like that.

In practice, however, I'm sure it wasn't quite that "innocent". All of those illegitimate children have to come from somewhere....

[Sir Brian]

In practice, however, I'm sure it wasn't quite that "innocent". All of those illegitimate children have to come from somewhere....

In practice, however, I'm sure it wasn't quite that "innocent". All of those illegitimate children have to come from somewhere....

Well certainly, then again the flower of chivalry in those days idolized the Arthurian legends where a mere lad is given ‘supreme executive power because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at him’ 

[Mike W.]

As I recently stated in another post, my opinion of chivalry (in its purest and ahistorical sense) is not some rigorous code with various rules and exceptions, but rather one simple rule: Love others. Or if you're a religious type: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." And loving yourself doesn't mean narcissistic, arrogant love, but a nurturing, caring, and disciplined love necessary to make ourselves better so that we may better serve others.

Romantic love is something that we can become blessed with in our lives, but it is no way a requirement for being a good person. Now mind you all of this is from an ahistorical perspective. Sadly, I am not entirely familiar with the historical rules and rituals of romantic and courtly love.

[SirNathanQ]

The resident Teutonic Knight and single guy takes a moment to confirm that a lady isn't NEEDED to be a knight, just a nice bonus! 
The thing is, you usually get the damsels after you start acting knightly. Few things the ladies like more than non-douchey confidence. 

[Sir William]

"Moistened bint" - I've not heard that term in years, but it is a favorite of mine.  lol

In any case, the art of courtly love really started in the Angevin era, per Wikipedia, in the ducal and princely courts of Aquitaine, Provence, Champagne, ducal Burgundy and the Norman Kingdom of Sicily at the end of the eleventh century. In essence, courtly love was an experience between erotic desire and spiritual attainment that now seems contradictory as "a love at once illicit and morally elevating, passionate and disciplined, humiliating and exalting, human and transcendent".

The whole point of chivalry (from a historical standpoint) was to institute a set of rules and regulations so that those of the knightly orders would have something besides maiming and killing as their joie de vivre.  It was to make natural born killers (and in a lot of cases, rapists, thieves, usurers, outright murderers even) into something like normal human beings; it was better than doing nothing at all I suppose.  What wilburnicus suggests as his definition of chivalry should not be confused with what chivalry was  back then- and love had little to do with it.

Courtly love should not be confused with what is shared between a man and wife; while it is true much of what a man and woman do behind closed doors may seem similar, it isn't always the case.  Not to mention, with courtly love, there was no guarantee that said love would ever be consummated (although it was, and often as history has shown us).

Sir Nathan, you are a consummate gentleman and a scholar. 

[Sir James A]

Courtly love is certainly an...odd concept, if I understand it correctly. In theory, wasn't it basically the idea that a knight would love and pine after a lady he knew he could never have, usually because she/he/both were already married? It was considered a purer form of love or something like that.

Yep. The name escapes me, but I remember someone who was married and had "courtly love" with a married woman. He hurt his finger at tournament and wrote to her about it. She said not good enough. He cut off his finger and sent it to her.

I don't plan to be *that* knightly.

I believe part of the intent of "courtly" love followed "courting" - the process men go through when trying to win a woman's love. As Sir William said, I also don't think it was ever particularly meant to be consumated, though it certainly did happen in some instances.

[Aiden of Oreland]

Lets not forget how the table cracked.

[Mike W.]

Yep. The name escapes me, but I remember someone who was married and had "courtly love" with a married woman. He hurt his finger at tournament and wrote to her about it. She said not good enough. He cut off his finger and sent it to her.

I don't plan to be *that* knightly.

I believe part of the intent of "courtly" love followed "courting" - the process men go through when trying to win a woman's love. As Sir William said, I also don't think it was ever particularly meant to be consumated, though it certainly did happen in some instances.

Box of chocolates? F*** that, I'm sending her a box of body parts!

[Aiden of Oreland]

Sir James you speak of Sir Ulrich Von Lichtenstein of Gelderland. You know, the person Sir William from Knight's Tale impersonates.

[Sir Nate]

Well it seems I'll become a Templar. When my family questions me being kit in relationship ill just tell them because I'm a Templar.

Makes me think of Ironclad. He was still chivalrous towards the lady but he didn't want any sexual relations.
In the end love and chivalry is just a misconception then isn't it?
It's all good feed back, Sir Patrick really nailed it first thing. As did sir William.

As I recently stated in another post, my opinion of chivalry (in its purest and ahistorical sense) is not some rigorous code with various rules and exceptions, but rather one simple rule: Love others. Or if you're a religious type: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." And loving yourself doesn't mean narcissistic, arrogant love, but a nurturing, caring, and disciplined love necessary to make ourselves better so that we may better serve others.

Romantic love is something that we can become blessed with in our lives, but it is no way a requirement for being a good person. Now mind you all of this is from an ahistorical perspective. Sadly, I am not entirely familiar with the historical rules and rituals of romantic and courtly love.

That seems more along the lines of compassion wilburnicus. Which is still an important part of chivalry.

[Sir James A]

Sir James you speak of Sir Ulrich Von Lichtenstein of Gelderland. You know, the person Sir William from Knight's Tale impersonates.

Aha! That sounds right. I kept thinking Marshal, but I knew it wasn't Marshal, and knew it was from an old Mike Loades joust show that mentions Marshal - and he does indeed mention Ulrich too. Well done!

[Aiden of Oreland]

Yep. The name escapes me, but I remember someone who was married and had "courtly love" with a married woman. He hurt his finger at tournament and wrote to her about it. She said not good enough. He cut off his finger and sent it to her.

I don't plan to be *that* knightly.

I believe part of the intent of "courtly" love followed "courting" - the process men go through when trying to win a woman's love. As Sir William said, I also don't think it was ever particularly meant to be consumated, though it certainly did happen in some instances.

Box of chocolates? F*** that, I'm sending her a box of body parts!

Hey, everyones doing it, Sir Ulrich Von Lichtenstein, Vincent van Gogh...