Butted maille

[Sir Nate]

What makes butted maille armor so bad?
Wasn't it use in the Middle East?
Or history in general?

[Ian]

Butted maille is only strong if made from considerably thick gauges of wire.  Otherwise upon impact the rings deform very easily and fall off.  It becomes more hassle than it's worth.  Thick gauges of wire mean heavy armor.  A riveted maille can be made much lighter for equivalent if not superior protection value than a very heavy butted maille shirt.

[Sir Douglas]

Butted rings are more likely to pop open under stress. There's nothing holding the ends together other than the ring's own strength; just an open gap. Riveted rings are overlapped, then held secure with another solid piece of metal. The rings could still fail under the right circumstances, of course, but it's a lot stronger.

Edit: Ninja'd by Ian.

[Sir Nate]

Butted maille is only strong if made from considerably thick gauges of wire.  Otherwise upon impact the rings deform very easily and fall off.  It becomes more hassle than it's worth.  Thick gauges of wire mean heavy armor.  A riveted maille can be made much lighter for equivalent if not superior protection value than a very heavy butted maille shirt.

Ya I thought about that, just confirming it.

Indeed

[Sir Wolf]

think about it. when i used to make 14 and 16 guage mail coifs and shirts I would bend the rings together with my fingers... would this stop a sword cut then?

[Sir Nate]

think about it. when i used to make 14 and 16 guage mail coifs and shirts I would bend the rings together with my fingers... would this stop a sword cut then?

No....
But I have a thick wired maille hauberk. And I need a tool to work with it.
But some areas weren't put together very well.

[Sir Wolf]

i bet u have 16 guage lol

[Sir Nate]

i bet u have 16 guage lol

Ye olde mother has 16gauge!

[Sir James A]

Off the top of my head I believe Far East (Japan) used butted mail somewhat frequently. However, they didn't use the European pattern, they didn't have all round rings, and it was sewn "flat" against the fabric sleeves (kote).

[Sir Nate]

Off the top of my head I believe Far East (Japan) used butted mail somewhat frequently. However, they didn't use the European pattern, they didn't have all round rings, and it was sewn "flat" against the fabric sleeves (kote).

Ohhh, Far East. Ok, well I guess over all butted maille is decoration.

[Aiden of Oreland]

Could always weld each piece.

[Sir William]

You could, but then it would still be historically inaccurate...not to mention, you're talking about over 10,000 individual welds; a lot of time and effort.  I was once like you- maybe worse because I needed instant gratification and had the means at my disposal...but thousands of dollars later, not to mention over a dozen different shirts, habergeons and hauberks later, I'm still in the market for something new and better.

I'm not sure if I would have been better served to have gotten exactly what I want and need from the beginning as part of the fun of this hobby is in acquisitions- at least, that is the case for me.  ymmv

[Aiden of Oreland]

You could, but then it would still be historically inaccurate...not to mention, you're talking about over 10,000 individual welds; a lot of time and effort.  I was once like you- maybe worse because I needed instant gratification and had the means at my disposal...but thousands of dollars later, not to mention over a dozen different shirts, habergeons and hauberks later, I'm still in the market for something new and better.

I'm not sure if I would have been better served to have gotten exactly what I want and need from the beginning as part of the fun of this hobby is in acquisitions- at least, that is the case for me.  ymmv

I am saving money for a soft kit and after that I am saving money for historically accurate Items in terms of armor. The outfit you see me in, in ny pictures, was before I cared about historically accurate stuff. But after being on this forum I am saving for top notch accurate stuff. Again, before I just bought whatever I thought would look cool. I am currently stuck between butted chausses for $70 or flat wedged for $350. Its such a mental battle haha. Buy it now or wait a year.

[Sir William]

I know what you mean...having been there, done that and in some cases, still doing it.  For whatever reason, I still peruse the MRL/Windlass catalog and if I see something I like, I might get it- even though it'll be anachronistic and not authentic to any one period, if at all.  That applies mostly to swords though, and the occasional garment- never the armor as most of it sucks both in quality and fitment.

[Sir Nate]

I know what you mean...having been there, done that and in some cases, still doing it.  For whatever reason, I still peruse the MRL/Windlass catalog and if I see something I like, I might get it- even though it'll be anachronistic and not authentic to any one period, if at all.  That applies mostly to swords though, and the occasional garment- never the armor as most of it sucks both in quality and fitment.

That sounds farbish.