"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self."
                -- Ernest Hemingway

Author Topic: Cutting targets for Albion Swords  (Read 16013 times)

Sir Ulrich

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,177
Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« on: 2013-12-26, 03:45:25 »
I have my Albion Reeve, I met up with my friend Elliot and we decided to cut targets with swords, we had one milk jug a bunch of newspaper targets and some seltzer bottles to cut. For some reason the seltzer bottles did NOT get cut even when I used proper method. I had no problem getting through the milk jug and even neatly cut the top off. The seltzer bottles simply got batted away and never would get cut, when I took a mace to them they CRACKED and exploded literally. My question is does anyone know where I can get more cutting targets and perhaps a stand to put targets up on. I did use a plastic table and a cardboard box but it had metal so in case we DO miss and believe me I actually had my mace fly out of my hand while using it due to my linen mittens for my gambeson not having the best grip. Would prefer a wooden stand honestly and I lack woodworking skills to make my own. Also does anyone know a cheap source of targets that can literally just be disposable, as doing this stuff is quite addicting honestly and a good work out, much better and entertaining than lifting weights which I stopped doing cause it was so boring.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #1 on: 2013-12-26, 13:58:43 »

Yeah, you do have to be careful. Occasionally you'll make a bad cut, and the sword will come out of your hand, or hit the stand. It happens to all of us, so it's important to have the right kind of stand, and to make sure friends and bystanders are behind you while cutting.

A wooden stand will be best. A 4x4" post works pretty well for water bottles and the like. If you decide to try tatami-mats, you can buy stands made specifically for those. But that's not the cheapest or quickest route, since you have to spend time preparing the tatami (soaking it overnight, for instance).

Foam targets are mostly a bust, but will work in a pinch. You can buy pool-noodles, but you want the really thick ones (4 or 6 inches wide, since the thinner ones tend to just bat around), and you'll need a stand with 1" thick peg to stick the pool noodles on.

Milk jugs cut very easily. Too easily in fact, since they don't give you any feedback on your technique. They only show you how good your aim is. If you're using the gallon-size plastic jugs, the fun thing with these is that if you do perfectly horizontal cuts, you can actually slice the entire jug down, one-inch at a time.

2-liter coke bottles filled with water will work well. They're pretty forgiving, and will cut if your edge alignment is decent. If it's way off, you'll bat the thing aside. This is true of 16oz bottles too.

Pumpkins make great targets. They're a bit destructive to overly thin & stiff blades, but the Albions just eat pumpkins for lunch. The only thing here is you need to be sure to really clean the blade afterward, because the pumpkin juice will discolor the blade if left on there.

Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #2 on: 2013-12-26, 21:02:17 »
I have my Albion Reeve, I met up with my friend Elliot and we decided to cut targets with swords, we had one milk jug a bunch of newspaper targets and some seltzer bottles to cut. For some reason the seltzer bottles did NOT get cut even when I used proper method.

"Proper method" is something that can take years or decades to learn. I'm still a novice with it. The seltzer bottles may be thicker plastic, which is less forgiving on any slop in cutting technique. It also requires a better edge just to get that initial "bite" of the cut into the plastic; a sharp Albion should be sufficient, but I've got a bunch of carbon steel swords with duller edges that do the same thing almost regardless of technique.

Sir Ian caught me grinning in enjoyment at VARF earlier this year during a cutting demo we did at the last show, when I was doing the "shaving" down inch by inch that Sir Edward mentioned. Granted, it's cabbage, not a milk carton, but they both cut easily and the idea is the same... keep making thin slices until it is gone. Probably could have done better without the gauntlets, and had I not been doing the combat demo 3 times earlier that day. I did okay though. :) I think I got 6 or 7 cuts out of that one.



It was a little awkward since the stand wasn't overly steady, but I didn't remember to bring mine so we had to improvise one. When you get that perfect horizontal mittelhau (however it's spelled!), the sword should be almost "invisible" like mine is in the picture; it shows that the edge alignment stayed flat and true. Keeping the edge aligned properly through the entire cut is something that takes *a lot* of practice. Again, I'm still pretty novice, just lucky that Sir Ian caught me during a good one.

I had no problem getting through the milk jug and even neatly cut the top off. The seltzer bottles simply got batted away and never would get cut, when I took a mace to them they CRACKED and exploded literally.

Milk jugs are thin and cut very easily. You can cut them with junk stainless steel wall hangers. That makes them useful to analyze your cuts on. And maces are certainly fun; I've hit full bottles with an 8 pound sledgehammer just for the thrill of it. And to yell "I. Am. THOR!" afterwards, of course...

My question is does anyone know where I can get more cutting targets and perhaps a stand to put targets up on.

I've got some rough cell phone pics of a couple cutting stands I made, on my website: http://www.james-anderson-iii.com/wma/pages/the-pell/

One is simply a 4x4 post that I cut to size and put in the ground with a removable 4x4 post stake. The 2x4 one doesn't go into the ground at all, and requires almost no woodworking skills; it's literally just cutting pieces to length and then screwing them together. It can be done with a hand saw and screwdriver, but much faster with a compound miter saw and power drill w/screwdriver bit. If you want to make one let me know if you have any questions, they're pretty easy.

Also does anyone know a cheap source of targets that can literally just be disposable, as doing this stuff is quite addicting honestly and a good work out, much better and entertaining than lifting weights which I stopped doing cause it was so boring.

I use 2 liter bottles, water bottles (the 16 oz ones), kitty litter jugs and milk jugs. Ideal since I acquire them just by drinking/using stuff, and since it's all recyclable material, once it's cut up, I just gather up the pieces and toss it in the recycle bin. No waste!

One thing you can do, is not just think of "I cut it" or "I didn't cut" it. Examine the cut pieces:

* Did it curve upwards or downwards?
* Did it cut most of the way through and leave a jagged edge where it failed by momentum strain instead of a clean, perfect slice?
* Do you have a straight, smooth cut?

Video to review from is also probably great. I want to do that at some point. It lets you see your technique slowed down to see exact edge alignment, it lets you see if you are striking on the best part of the blade, it lets you see your foot work and other minor-but-important details that help bring the whole of the art of cutting together cohesively.

While expensive and a bit burdensome, tatami is excellent for that kind of technique review since it is "solid" all the way through as compared to bottles. I'll try to get a picture of mine later from Longpoint 2011 when I did the cutting class with an Albion; it is very good at showing the trail of the cut.

One of the coolest things I saw at Longpoint in 2011 was when Edelson started the cutting class and did a "hanging cut" (not sure of the proper term); he had a tatami mat on the stand, and he did a forward cut, followed by a reverse cut from the forward cut, and another forward cut - 3 cuts really quickly - and then the tatami pieces fell off. He literally cut so quickly and so smoothly that it slid off like the crazy katana cartoons. It was WAY too cool.
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #3 on: 2013-12-29, 01:07:48 »
Sir James how did you get such a perfect cutting pic?
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #4 on: 2013-12-29, 01:11:01 »
Sir James how did you get such a perfect cutting pic?

I just use a very fast shutter speed to freeze the action and try to time it as well as possible.  I took a lot of photos of this cutting demo, only a few of them get that magic timing, but like a smart photographer, I only publish the good ones :)
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #5 on: 2013-12-29, 02:42:48 »
Sir James how did you get such a perfect cutting pic?

Sir Ian took the picture, and explained how above :) He got quite a few fantastic photos of me. I had no idea I am so photogenic; it helps when I have my helmet on though...
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Lord Dane

  • The Hound, Hunter, and Hammer of Justice
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,900
  • Selflessness, Service, Justice.
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #6 on: 2013-12-29, 11:47:33 »
He took his time to. That cabbage was just asking for it.  :P
"Fides, Honos, Prudentia, Sapiencia" (Faith, Honor, Prudence, Wisdom)
"Fiat justitia ruat caelum" (Let justice be done)

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #7 on: 2013-12-30, 14:33:26 »
One thing you can do, is not just think of "I cut it" or "I didn't cut" it. Examine the cut pieces:

* Did it curve upwards or downwards?
* Did it cut most of the way through and leave a jagged edge where it failed by momentum strain instead of a clean, perfect slice?
* Do you have a straight, smooth cut?

This really is the best way to learn what you're doing. Tatami is great for this, but as we pointed out, it's more expensive and requires preparation. But if you can get your hand on pumpkins, cabbages, and various other large veggies, they can work for this as well.

You ideally want a cut that does not curve in the target. Curvature can come from a few different things: Bad edge alignment (meaning the blade is not moving in a line perfectly parallel to its edge), or there's a curve to your swing, or there's enough of those other factors to cause the target to move while the blade is still inside it.

With a really clean cut, even a cabbage will allow the lower half to stay nearly motionless on the stand, and the upper half to fly off. A poor cut may cut cleanly, but send the entire cabbage flying, so there's still something to be learned from it even if the cut halves look perfect.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #8 on: 2013-12-30, 21:40:23 »
He took his time to. That cabbage was just asking for it.  :P

That year or two I worked in a salad bar did not go to waste. :D
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #9 on: 2013-12-30, 22:46:37 »
He took his time to. That cabbage was just asking for it.  :P

That year or two I worked in a salad bar did not go to waste. :D
He took his time to. That cabbage was just asking for it.  :P

That year or two I worked in a salad bar did not go to waste. :D
He took his time to. That cabbage was just asking for it.  :P

That year or two I worked in a salad bar did not go to waste. :D

Did you supply them with freshly cleaved lettuce.
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #10 on: 2013-12-30, 23:59:11 »
If you salt your blade, then place a bottle of vinegar before a head of cabbage, and use Liechtenauer master cuts......

....Can you make full speed Sauerkraut?   ;D
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #11 on: 2013-12-31, 00:20:44 »
If you salt your blade, then place a bottle of vinegar before a head of cabbage, and use Liechtenauer master cuts......

....Can you make full speed Sauerkraut?   ;D

lol
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #12 on: 2013-12-31, 00:45:22 »
If you salt your blade, then place a bottle of vinegar before a head of cabbage, and use Liechtenauer master cuts......

....Can you make full speed Sauerkraut?   ;D

lol

hehehe german jokes.
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"

Sir Wolf

  • He Who is Not to be Named
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,389
  • i have too many hats
    • man e faces
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #13 on: 2013-12-31, 02:24:45 »
hmmmmmmm make some cole slaw
« Last Edit: 2013-12-31, 02:25:38 by Sir Wolf »

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: Cutting targets for Albion Swords
« Reply #14 on: 2013-12-31, 05:15:55 »
hmmmmmmm make some cole slaw

Hehehe I like cole slaw
But not saur kraut.

Medieval blender.
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"