Knighly Orders during the Crusades

[Lord Dane]

"The Brethren" (A book about one of the last templar knights before the exodus of the Order).

[Sir Edward]

My understanding is that there is no evidence of direct lineage from the Templars to the Freemasons.

What I think is more likely is this... During the 19th century, everything medieval was all the rage, much like it is today. I suspect around that time (plus or minus a century), some inspiration was drawn from it, and possibly some misinterpretation of history, willful or not.

[Sir Nate]

My understanding is that there is no evidence of direct lineage from the Templars to the Freemasons.

What I think is more likely is this... During the 19th century, everything medieval was all the rage, much like it is today. I suspect around that time (plus or minus a century), some inspiration was drawn from it, and possibly some misinterpretation of history, willful or not.

Is that why poe wrote so many stories during the medieval era and or rennasiance- Other than being well educated.

[Sir James A]

My understanding is that there is no evidence of direct lineage from the Templars to the Freemasons.

Mine as well. Lots of theory, lots of extrapolation, and some common features between them.. but no solid links to prove, and nothing solid to disprove.. which makes it ripe for conspiracy theories and suppositions.

[Lord Dane]

Hypothetical will just have to wait for empirical evidence to catch up I guess.

[Aiden of Oreland]

Hypothetical will just have to wait for empirical evidence to catch up I guess.

When I join the Masons, I will find the answer, but I would not be able to tell you.

[Sir James A]

Hypothetical will just have to wait for empirical evidence to catch up I guess.

I'm actually looking forward to that. I think there is more to it than we see, in large part due to secret societies being good at keeping secrets. I've seen a number of things about it (Holy Grail in America, etc) and also have a book on the "Hooked X" (still to read) and how it relates to the Kensington rune stone and such. Fascinating subject, I just hope they figure it out while I'm alive to hear about it.

[LionPride32]

Hey Gents,

There is a little something I noticed in "Kingdom of Heaven" that youu may be able to help me with. The tunic that Liam Neeson and later Orlando Bloom wears - it has the iron crosses on it, with mixed/matched red and white colors. I initially thought it was a Templar tunic, but then it shows many other Templars with straight white tunics with one big red cross. Guy and Raynauld are examples. What exactly was the red/white tunic Liam wears supposed to be??

[Sir Douglas]

Hey Gents,

There is a little something I noticed in "Kingdom of Heaven" that youu may be able to help me with. The tunic that Liam Neeson and later Orlando Bloom wears - it has the iron crosses on it, with mixed/matched red and white colors. I initially thought it was a Templar tunic, but then it shows many other Templars with straight white tunics with one big red cross. Guy and Raynauld are examples. What exactly was the red/white tunic Liam wears supposed to be??

I do believe that's meant to represent Ibelin's personal arms. It's actually red and yellow, based on the real-life Ibelin arms, though the yellow on the surcoat is rather pale and faded and looks like an off-white.

[Sir James A]

Agreed with Douglas. The Ibelin surcoat from the movie is maroon/yellow and uses the same style cross:

[SirNathanQ]

Yeah, no solid evidence to support the Templars morphing into the Freemasons through some type of hokey lineage nonsense. The Templars were monks, sworn to celibacy (seriously, they weren't even allowed to touch, or be in the same area alone with a woman). Now anyone who knows the first thing about biology will be able to inform you the problems with claiming a bloodline to a bunch of celibate dudes.
Templar basically joined the Hospitallers, or became Knights of Christ, which was literally the Templar Order with a different name. Nations were usually pretty ok with this kind of thing going on, since they were only found guilty in France, and were found no guilty after they were already disbanded and burned. Awkward.

Ok, short history of the Teutonic Knights.
They were founded during the 3rd crusade at the siege of Acre. At first they were a branch of the Hostipallers, but soon because their own order, meant to blend the Templar's military ferocity and organization with the Hostpitaller's charity, with a unique German flair. They, while maintaing castles and supporting campaigns in Outremer, organized and led the Baltic Crusades against Pagans who were ravaging Poland at the time. They were wildly successful, conquering and holding their own nation state, and becoming powerful enough to rival any European nation. They were undoubtably the most powerful military order, with their own army (which was rather large, even among nations, for the time), diplomats, traders, and chapterhouses throughout Europe in addition to their sovereign state.
At the zenith of their power, they succeeded in their Crusade efforts, and converted the last of the Lithuanian Archdukes in 1389. Shortly after though, they faced a decline as nations (specifically Poland and Lithuania) grew stronger, and united against the Teutonic Order. This, combined with the growing anti-monastic sentiment throughout Europe left the Order without men, and with many enemies. They were eventually driven out of the Baltic in the 16th century, the Livonian Branch being wiped out by Ivan the Terrible in 1545. They were only officially suppressed by Adolf Hitler. After the fall of the 3rd Reich, they were reformed as a religious/charity order, which they function as to this day.

[Aiden of Oreland]

Correct me if I am wrong, Tuetonic Knights wear a white surcotte with a black cross. Well, how come they were in Kingdom of Heaven? The scene where Orlando gets attacked? Doesn't that movie take place before the Order is formed? Were those not Tuetonics? Is that a movie mistake? Or are they not actually Tuetonics?

[Sir Douglas]

Correct me if I am wrong, Tuetonic Knights wear a white surcotte with a black cross. Well, how come they were in Kingdom of Heaven? The scene where Orlando gets attacked? Doesn't that movie take place before the Order is formed? Were those not Tuetonics? Is that a movie mistake? Or are they not actually Tuetonics?

As far as I know, that's a movie boo-boo. A later scene between Guy and Reynald suggests that they were supposed to be Templars (Don't remember the exact quote, but Reynald says something to the effect of, "and the Templars killed Balian?")
The great helm the one guy's wearing is also way out of date. It's about a century too early, which is odd considering the rest of the movie gets it pretty close as far as armor. I kind of wonder what was going on when they filmed that scene, as that's the only one in the movie where that style of helm appears, and the only scene where the Templars are sporting black crosses. At least the only one that I'm aware of.

[Aiden of Oreland]

I think we might just have to make a medieval movie critic much like the Nostalgic critic. One that gives ups and downs. One for the forum at least and makes them in video form. Ooo! Maybe he could even demonstrate what people would actually wear! By wearing it! Haha even do some photoshop and correct the movie. That'll never happen. Anyway, so are the supposed to be Templars or Teutonic Knights? Maybe the movie director thought that since some of the Teutonic knights are mercenaries that they were hired to kill the guys. Also The teutonic knights do share some relation with Templars. He may have just gotten some facts mixed up.

[Sir Douglas]

Anyway, so are the supposed to be Templars or Teutonic Knights?

I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be Templars.