Where to begin? New Kit in the working..

[Sir Edward]

Another consideration is how much you're willing to fudge things or cut corners, for the sake of ease or cost-savings. My mid-14th century kit (in the photo above) was relatively cheap to get started, since I went with MercTailer arms and legs, which are very functional, but save on costs by not replicating all of the subtleties in how 14th century armor was shaped.

I also cheated on the breastplate, which is a GDFB breastplate with the plackart removed, so it looks kinda like a globose breastplate, but also lacks the details.

I'm still working on getting the new surcoat/jupon/whatever made, and figuring out what I want for sabatons and greaves, and again I'll probably cheap-out on those.

Properly made greaves alone can cost $1500 or more.

But since you want some plate with a great helm, you're looking fairly early in the plate-armor part of the 14th century. The good news is that it's simpler and cheaper than a lot of the other options out there.

[Ian]

With plate armor, I don't recommend skimping or cutting corners solely because it will not function properly and will ultimately be very uncomfortable.  And no offense Sir Ed, but greaves and sabs are probably the two worst pieces to skimp on because they will make life miserable if they don't function right, and if they're not high quality, they won't function right.  Also, you're not spending $1500 on cased greaves if you opt to get them in mild steel as opposed to hardened spring steel.

If you want to do a mostly maille harness with plate pieces like was common when plate was first starting to be invented, you can get very high quality plate for not too much money because of the pieces you'd need.  Basically, elbow cops, knee cops, and maybe schybalds (front half of greaves, which don't require nearly the same engineering and skill as fully cased greaves).  You can get out the door with a VERY good living history quality kit of the circa 1300 AD variety for considerably less money than a plate harness.

[Sir Edward]

Those are some good points. I'm still thinking of going with Halberds' sabs for mine, since they're "close enough" but not junk. But I don't want to detail Jake's thread here.

There's a lot of room in the 14th century to pick exactly what sort of combination you want, since the century started with almost no plate, and ended with very complex plate.

[Sir Douglas]

I was actually thinking of going to the book store today to look and see if they have any good reference material to look at. I will keep that series in mind when I go.

The Osprey books are fantastic. I also cast my recommendation for them. Another good one is Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight by David Edge. It has a lot of really nice pictures of period manuscripts and effigies, as well as a few photographs of actual surviving pieces. Lots of good information, too, and the chapters are broken down by century.

[Sir Jason Simonds]

I was browsing at the effigies and a common theme, for late 1200's to late 1300's, that i see is what appears to be Chain mail all the way down to the boot. Maybe the chain is affixed to the boot as one piece like booted pants or separate legs?? Later in the 1300's you start to see more plate pieces, like knee cops and greaves. I think i will check into the Osprey series books as well as see what i can find on written accounts of armor worn through the ages.

[Ian]

I was browsing at the effigies and a common theme, for late 1200's to late 1300's, that i see is what appears to be Chain mail all the way down to the boot. Maybe the chain is affixed to the boot as one piece like booted pants or separate legs?? Later in the 1300's you start to see more plate pieces, like knee cops and greaves. I think i will check into the Osprey series books as well as see what i can find on written accounts of armor worn through the ages.

That's accurate.  13th century kit is primarily a maille hauberk (knee length top and long sleeves), and maille chausses (the leggings), and maille coif (hood).  Under that would be a gambeson, similar to the nice one Jessica Finley made for Sir Ed.  And then you cover it with a nice long heraldic surcoat and top it with a great helm.

By the late 13th and early 14th, you start to see plate elbows, knees and schynbalds starting to get strapped over that while the shape of the great helm evolves a bit.

Osprey disclaimer, some are great resources, some are abysmal.  Osprey's just the publisher, some of their authors and artists are really great, but there are some who are blatantly terrible and inaccurate.  Compare what you're seeing in the Osprey books to the effigies of the same period to make sure what you're looking at is somewhat accurate.

[Sir James A]

The nice thing about early transitional is you can start by doing arming garments, then mail. The plate needs to be worn over the mail, so the plate portion is irrelevant for a while, as you'll need measurements *over* the mail anyway. Once you have your time frame narrowed down, focus on the garments first, then mail.

Also, you can get Osprey books off Amazon. I got 10 or so of them from there.

Most chausses I've seen are like a long stocking. I need to trim mine around the feet, but they are otherwise complete. I have some "mail time" set aside this weekend to work on that and my hauberk tailoring. In testing at home - no actual long-term wearing yet - I found it easiest to put on the chausses, tie the feet/lower up out of the way, put the shoes on, then let the mail back down. It would be tied down after.

I sent Ulrich a few messages about it on FB, but I have a plan that essentially involves using some black leather trim on the inside of the chausses to have some quick and dirty, easy to tie on chausses w/feet. I'll post pics next week if I get at least one foot done this weekend.

[Sir Jason Simonds]

Sir James,

From what I have seen from the Effigies, it looks as if the chausses are attached to the footwear by lacing under the boot or connected directly to the boot, and then secured around the ankle and heel by way of either lacing or spurs. I would assume that a pair of leggings of some sort would have been worn underneath?? You know to keep stuff protected as well..

[Ian]

Sir James,

From what I have seen from the Effigies, it looks as if the chausses are attached to the footwear by lacing under the boot or connected directly to the boot, and then secured around the ankle and heel by way of either lacing or spurs. I would assume that a pair of leggings of some sort would have been worn underneath?? You know to keep stuff protected as well..

The leggings worn beneath maille are typically lightly padded and quilted chausses.  Kind of like a gambeson for your legs.

[Sir James A]

Exactly what Sir Ian said.

Spurs would certainly help hold it in place. My spurs used to hold the back of my sabatons in place before I added a separate strap, in case I didn't feel like tripping myself constantly.

Dr Metz has a great picture of the lacing beneath his shoe, but I don't have it on hand. Flat soled shoes mean you'll be walking on lacing all day, so it will wear out a bit faster. I like the lugged soles (modern soles) since it's not really visible, and you can "nest" the lacing inside of the lugs a bit. Again, still an "at home" prototype, but seems promising.

[Sir Jason Simonds]

Well I am thinking at this point I need to find some good resourses on arming garments so I can work on those as well. At this point I think i will start looking into chainmail. Perhaps something that can work well over an extended time range.

[Ian]

Exactly what Sir Ian said.

Spurs would certainly help hold it in place. My spurs used to hold the back of my sabatons in place before I added a separate strap, in case I didn't feel like tripping myself constantly.

Dr Metz has a great picture of the lacing beneath his shoe, but I don't have it on hand. Flat soled shoes mean you'll be walking on lacing all day, so it will wear out a bit faster. I like the lugged soles (modern soles) since it's not really visible, and you can "nest" the lacing inside of the lugs a bit. Again, still an "at home" prototype, but seems promising.

Period correct footwear with a flat sole will not cause problems with a strap.  Most inexpensive reproduction period footwear uses leather on the bottom that is too thick, and that does cause problems.  Real period footwear has a very supple sole and puts no pressure on the arch of the foot, so as long as you don't have flat feet, the strap of a spur should basically occupy the space under the arch of your foot.  It's more like walking barefoot than in a shoe.  Nice soft flexible soles on good reproduction period footwear will help eliminate the problem that Sir James is describing.  We as modern folk are used to a hard sole, so it takes getting used to, but period footwear was designed to be soft so that you could feel and grip the ground with your foot and not slip.  The problem is generally that good period footwear is hard to find or expensive, or both.  Mass produced period footwear is not good period footwear.

[Sir James A]

Agreed on the footwear, Sir Ian, and you're spot on in where the strap sits, in the arch of the foot, with sabatons. With chausses, it's a little different since the lacing travels the length of the foot in multiple spots, and not just under the arch. I dug up the link to Dr Metz's photo to show what I'm talking about:



I think lugged soles are a good option for that. On my shoes for the sabatons, I knocked off the lugs where the strap passes under. Lacing should fit between without needing to do anything to the soles.

[Sir Douglas]

Period correct footwear with a flat sole will not cause problems with a strap.  Most inexpensive reproduction period footwear uses leather on the bottom that is too thick, and that does cause problems.  Real period footwear has a very supple sole and puts no pressure on the arch of the foot, so as long as you don't have flat feet, the strap of a spur should basically occupy the space under the arch of your foot.  It's more like walking barefoot than in a shoe.  Nice soft flexible soles on good reproduction period footwear will help eliminate the problem that Sir James is describing.  We as modern folk are used to a hard sole, so it takes getting used to, but period footwear was designed to be soft so that you could feel and grip the ground with your foot and not slip.  The problem is generally that good period footwear is hard to find or expensive, or both.  Mass produced period footwear is not good period footwear.

I don't mean to derail the thread here, but on this note, how are the shoes from Viking Leathercrafts? I've heard nothing but good things about them and was planning on getting a pair sometime soon.

[Sir Brian]

Frank does excellent work!
If you happen to have wide feet though, make sure you specify that when you order them so he can make the necessary adjustments. When I recently received my new knight jousting boots they were standard width which is way too narrow for my flipper-like feet. Yet when I contacted him via email he readily replied and suggested I pour some rubbing alcohol into them and wear them around a bit to stretch them out and man that worked like a charm because now they fit perfectly!