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Author Topic: Heraldry question.  (Read 11835 times)

Sir Vander Linde

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Heraldry question.
« on: 2013-08-20, 16:49:41 »
well like the title says good Sirs I have a question.
My family has a "bond" crest, I think that is the best way of describing it, anyway it is a heraldic shield that is fairly simple, however no one in the family can tell me what the thing is in the center, and to be quite frank I have never seen it anywhere else. So I took it apon my self to try an find out what it is called, I failed.  What I did find however was another example of this heraldic device on Grand master Ludolf Konig von Wattzau's heraldry. but again no explanation of what exactly it is.

Grand master Ludolf Konig von Wattzau"s heraldry
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Wg_koenig.gif
^excuse the wiki link all other sites had image block

it is the red thingy, I recognize the leaf shape as Linden but the orientation confuses me as I don't know what it is called, my families bond-crest is vert field with (thingy) argent proper. so you can see the confusion, (one of the reasons I use variants I know the heraldry of when reenacting)

so any help is much appreciated.  ;D
(I'll look for a digital copy of mine)
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Sir Nate

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #1 on: 2013-08-20, 17:25:46 »
perhaps the ring thingy represents a bond of 3 items. and usually when there are 2 pics next to each other it means that two seperate countries had a child together and that would be the childs 
coat of arms. so maybe it would be wise to find out which country is which. the symbol with the bird seems germanic.
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Nathan Phillip Max
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Sir Douglas

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #2 on: 2013-08-20, 18:52:14 »
Couldn't tell you what it means, but it might be an annulet.
« Last Edit: 2013-08-20, 18:55:22 by DouglasTheYounger »
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Per pale azure and argent, an eagle displayed per pale argent and sable, armed and langued or.

So a Norman, a Saxon, and a Viking walk into England....

Sir Edward

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #3 on: 2013-08-20, 19:24:11 »
Quote from: DouglasTheYounger on 2013-08-20, 18:52:14
Couldn't tell you what it means, but it might be an annulet.

That's what I was thinking. It may not have a name directly, but rather could be an annulet with three leaves attached to it. Maybe something like "an annulet sprouting three leaves" or something like that?
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Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir James A

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #4 on: 2013-08-20, 19:49:08 »
Vert is green, Argent is white. Proper means "as it is normally colored". Argent proper, would mean naturally white? I think? I'm not that great with heraldry, but sounds like green background, white symbol.

The 4 corners like that is called "quartering".
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Sir Vander Linde

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #5 on: 2013-08-20, 23:39:17 »
Hmmm not quite sure it is annulet but I suppose it could be a variant of it, I have seen a variant of annulet that was comprised of three fish.

yeah, the symbol is quite confusing but I did find a chart more or less that shows it in better detail I suppose, as to the one in question, vs the one in that rendering of that Grand masters.

plain version, just the symbol
http://www.oocities.org/wapenspreuk/vdLindeBond.gif

and the chart
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/linde-familiebond.jpg


Thanks for the responses, Sirs, I'll look into that possibility of it being a annulet variant a bit more. However you can see in the new links that it isn't quite round or ring shaped. but who knows.
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Sir Douglas

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #6 on: 2013-08-21, 00:57:54 »
Ah, I see now. Yeah, I don't think that's an annulet. I don't really know what that is; I looked through all of my heraldry books and did a quick online search and couldn't even find anything close. Yet it looks oddly familiar.
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Per pale azure and argent, an eagle displayed per pale argent and sable, armed and langued or.

So a Norman, a Saxon, and a Viking walk into England....

Sir Nate

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #7 on: 2013-08-21, 01:03:19 »
If most of us recognize yet can't put our finger on it, how come we can figure this out.
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Nathan Phillip Max
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Thorsteinn

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #8 on: 2013-08-21, 06:19:47 »
Have you tried your local SCA Herald?
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Sir Edward

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #9 on: 2013-08-21, 13:34:03 »
It could be some sort of trefoil variant as well. Just not sure. My google-fu is weak on this one.


Or maybe it's an early variant of the Radiation or Biohazard symbols... lol.
« Last Edit: 2013-08-21, 13:38:03 by Sir Edward »
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Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir Edward

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #10 on: 2013-08-21, 17:29:13 »

Another similar one, with just the leaves, not connected:

"Argent, in pall three linden leaves gules, stems to center."

http://coblaith.net/Heraldry/Crosses/ofcharges.html
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0002/bsb00020447/images/index.html?fip=193.174.98.30&id=00020447&seite=922
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Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir Edward

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #11 on: 2013-08-21, 17:36:18 »
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Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir Edward

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #12 on: 2013-08-21, 17:37:01 »

I'd be tempted to call it "conjoined in pall three linden leaves"
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Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir Vander Linde

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #13 on: 2013-08-21, 18:12:31 »
Quote from: Sir Edward on 2013-08-21, 17:37:01

I'd be tempted to call it "conjoined in pall three linden leaves"

From what you provided Sir Edward, I would have to agree. That is quite the source on the matter isn't it.

Thank you.  :)
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Sir James A

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Re: Heraldry question.
« Reply #14 on: 2013-08-23, 15:10:40 »
Great research, Sir Edward. Maybe "conjoined in pall, upon an annulet, three linden leaves"?
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