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Author Topic: 'We Have Always Fought': Challenging the 'Women, Cattle and Slaves' Narrative  (Read 11588 times)

Sir Edward

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Sir William

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That was an interesting and well-written article that made some very salient points.  History as we are taught is full of missing things and events; I chalk that up to it being sanitized for mass consumption to paint the victors (or governing bodies) in the best light possible.  This particular point has always been something I've thought long and hard about and had come to the same conclusion.  Especially as a Knight:

"Somebody needs to be the person who says something is wrong. We can’t pretend we don’t see it. Because people have been murdered and assaulted on street corners where hundreds of people milled around, pretending everything was normal.

But pretending it was normal didn’t make it so.

Somebody has to point it out. Somebody has to get folks to move.

Somebody has to act."

We are the type; we are the ones who are supposed to act when no one else does. 
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You know, I never gave it much thought, but I read that yesterday and I just noticed something today, in this horrible story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329089/Woolwich-attack-Two-men-hack-soldier-wearing-Help-Heroes-T-shirt-death-machetes-suspected-terror-attack.html

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The two men are thought to have waited around for 20 minutes until Metropolitan Police officers arrived and then tried to attack them - but were swiftly shot by armed policemen, including a woman.

Including a woman? Wow, a female cop? That was relevant enough to be mentioned separately, I guess?
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Sir Edward

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The two men are thought to have waited around for 20 minutes until Metropolitan Police officers arrived and then tried to attack them - but were swiftly shot by armed policemen, including a woman.

Including a woman? Wow, a female cop? That was relevant enough to be mentioned separately, I guess?

Yeah, it's a bit of an eye-opener, isn't it? I'm certainly going to be on the look-out for it now. It raises an excellent point about how much of this sexism we just don't notice.
« Last Edit: 2013-05-22, 20:56:28 by Sir Edward »
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Joshua Santana

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Yeah, it's a bit of an eye-opener, isn't it? I'm certainly going to be on the look-out for it now. It raises an excellent point about how much of this sexism we just don't notice.

To me, it all boils down towards how people react to something and then make a big mountain out of an ant hill.  I was surprised when the female cop was with the metropolitan police and one of the shot down was a woman.  The line has to be drawn as to prevent something like this from happening.

I am also reminded at how people will attempt to solve an inner societal issue with an external policy solution.  Most of the time this either backfires or it doesn't work.  This is more than evidence to continue the fight to bring back Chivalry, now, more than ever. 
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A well written article.

I was raised to see women as equals and powerful allies. I have been taught at times by women and have had female martial arts instructors who were easily on par with their male colleagues. A woman's wisdom and power may be different from that of a male, yet these things are most certainly no less potent.

 In the tribal context this is commonly accepted among the First Nations of North America and other places. What is unfortunate is that  over time our mainstream modern day culture has come to discount the contributions and indeed the power of the womenfolk.

In combat we are taught that it is folly to underestimate an opponent. So too is it the work of a fool to discount the powers of an ally. The women of our species can be truly powerful, beautiful and sacred...not to mention dangerous when crossed. It is time that we as a society bring that understanding more and more to light.
“Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel.”    - Beowulf

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My wife and I are both military helicopter pilots.  Now it's a known fact that women cannot fly as well as men, but they try, and should be given credit for their efforts.  I kid, I kid... Women in military aviation really aren't anything special, and I mean that in a good way.  They're just like everyone else in military aviation.  We don't treat them differently, they don't treat us differently.  It's always the outside that wants to single them out and treat them differently.  As an instructor pilot, some of my best students were women, some of my worst students were women, and it had nothing to do with their gender.

For example, a local news team came to our base when we were in Pensacola to do a piece on women in aviation.  They grabbed my wife and her friend to do some of the interview portions of the story.  The news people kept asking leading questions and things to basically try to get Helen and her friend to differentiate themselves from all the other pilots, like they some special breed of pilot because of their anatomy... They just kept telling the news people that there IS no difference.  We're all on the same team, and we all possess the same training and skills, we're not male pilots and female pilots, we're just pilots.  They ran the story anyway, but didn't air most of that and still put their spin on it to make it seem like there's some magical difference.

I often find that it's the people who think they're helping a cause by emphasizing those differences that really do nothing but perpetuate the problems and biases that existed in the first place.  Groups that make it a big point to emphasize when a woman or minority achieves something great are hurting not helping.  It's almost like saying the accomplishment is greater, because look, even a woman was able to do it!  Just stop thinking of people by their genders or races, accept that we're all people, and move on with your life.  Celebrate that humans have great achievements, not women vs men, or black vs white...
« Last Edit: 2013-07-03, 21:42:11 by Ian »
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B. Patricius

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My wife and I are both military helicopter pilots.  Now it's a known fact that women cannot fly as well as men, but they try, and should be given credit for their efforts.  I kid, I kid... Women in military aviation really aren't anything special, and I mean that in a good way.  They're just like everyone else in military aviation.  We don't treat them differently, they don't treat us differently.  It's always the outside that wants to single them out and treat them differently.  As an instructor pilot, some of my best students were women, some of my worst students were women, and it had nothing to do with their gender.

For example, a local news team came to our base when we were in Pensacola to do a piece on women in aviation.  They grabbed my wife and her friend to do some of the interview portions of the story.  The news people kept asking leading questions and things to basically try to get Helen and her friend to differentiate themselves from all the other pilots, like they some special breed of pilot because of their anatomy... They just kept telling the news people that there IS no difference.  We're all on the same team, and we all possess the same training and skills, we're not male pilots and female pilots, we're just pilots.  They ran the story anyway, but didn't air most of that and still put their spin on it to make it seem like there's some magical difference.

I often find that it's the people who think they're helping a cause by emphasizing those differences that really do nothing but perpetuate the problems and biases that existed in the first place.  Groups that make it a big point to emphasize when a woman or minority achieves something great are hurting not helping.  It's almost like saying the accomplishment is greater, because look, even a woman was able to do it!  Just stop thinking of people by their genders or races, accept that we're all people, and move on with your life.  Celebrate that humans have great achievements, not women vs men, or black vs white...

QFT

In the Coast Guard, it's kind of cool, because we are all the same.  On my fireteam, my OIC was female.  And she rocked!  Not because she was female, but because she was an amazing leader and fine OIC that we all put our lives into her hands.  She also refused to take the easier PT test, even though it was always the bar they held her to, she continually exceeded and beat some of the guys.  She led by example.
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It is quality of character that makes a person excel or fail in their efforts regardless of what it is. Gender has little prevailance in how I view this topic. I have trained many in different areas especially because training is what I do as part of my occupation. You are either capable & competent or not. You either listen & follow instructions or not. You either present & perform to expectation or not.

I make no room for exceptions in what I expect of those I instruct in my line of work. You must be able to perform & gender has no bearing on it to me. I hold 'everyone' to 'my standard', not someone else's expectations.
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B. Patricius

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Very well said Lord Dane, well said indeed.
"Be open with your thoughts, Be witty with your humor, Be kind with your words, Be sensible in your acts." - Lord Dane
Never theorize before you have data. Invariably, you end up twisting facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.
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Sir Edward

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I often find that it's the people who think they're helping a cause by emphasizing those differences that really do nothing but perpetuate the problems and biases that existed in the first place. Groups that make it a big point to emphasize when a woman or minority achieves something great are hurting not helping.  It's almost like saying the accomplishment is greater, because look, even a woman was able to do it!  Just stop thinking of people by their genders or races, accept that we're all people, and move on with your life.  Celebrate that humans have great achievements, not women vs men, or black vs white...

QFT, emphasis mine. Very well said.
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Sir William

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I often find that it's the people who think they're helping a cause by emphasizing those differences that really do nothing but perpetuate the problems and biases that existed in the first place. Groups that make it a big point to emphasize when a woman or minority achieves something great are hurting not helping.  It's almost like saying the accomplishment is greater, because look, even a woman was able to do it!  Just stop thinking of people by their genders or races, accept that we're all people, and move on with your life.  Celebrate that humans have great achievements, not women vs men, or black vs white...

QFT, emphasis mine. Very well said.

I second that sentiment.  And I'll also add- your wife's a helicopter pilot?  That's hot.  I like that.  Not that it matters.  :)
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Ian

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I second that sentiment.  And I'll also add- your wife's a helicopter pilot?  That's hot.  I like that.  Not that it matters.  :)

Yep, met in flight training.
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B. Patricius

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I second that sentiment.  And I'll also add- your wife's a helicopter pilot?  That's hot.  I like that.  Not that it matters.  :)

Yep, met in flight training.

there really needs to be a "like" button on these forums :D
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Why? We obviously like everything.  ;D
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