Appropriate Helm for cerca 1100-1187 Templar

[Silvanus]

Some of you gentlemen know my kit. After Sir Brian's demonstration this past weekend wherein he easily buffeted me about the head and neck with a waster, I have concluded that I need more protective head gear.... I have my heart set on this one:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0351&name=Crusader+Flat+Top+Helmet

Any historical objections? Or better ideas?

Silvanus

[Sir Brian]

That is a good choice and it is certainly heavy enough gauge steel.

[Sir Wolf]

that is a great helmet and i have been looking at it myself. but it's not in your time frame. it's slightly off from the mac bible version and thats about 1250s to later. if you remember my helmet from the weekend was set at 1210 and it had no back plate to it. so you may have to fudge your time later or just wear something for safety and forget the time frame.  or...... get a helm sorta like mine, and have someone add a "hidden" back plate by maile

[B. Patricius]

I have to agree with Sir Wolf.  One of the best ways to have an earlier period helmet but with the needed protection is having the back covered with mail or leather.  I myself, am doing a late 12th early 13th century kit as well.  Basically Third Crusade or right thereafter. 

here's one extant example and some inspiration.  Also Sir Wolf's recently painted helmet is definitely a good one. 
(1200-1215) Shrine of Charlemagne




here's another idea where the guy covered it with leather scales, kinda cool


It seems the Phrygian helm can be dated a bit earlier than the others, but as far as I've personally found, I'm using that as heresay. 


As a note though, that's just because I haven't been able to research that particular helm that much, all I've found are tertiary examples and people on forums saying it's earlier.  Usually those people can be correct, but I like finding that out for myself.  Also, I'm concerned if the flutes would be construed as "excessive" in light of what the Templars believed and carried.  If it is capable of being used within a Templar kit, than realistically that's the helm I'm going to go with.

Hope this helps!  I'm making a Knights Templar kit, and a secular early 13th century kit as well.  My pinterest http://pinterest.com/tanukidomo/13th-17th-cent-europewma/ has a lot on there now.  I'm using it as my inspiration database.  It isn't just Crusades era, but there's a ton there that is.  It'll be cool to see what you come up with.

[Sir Ulrich]

I actually have one of those topfhelms with the "muzzle" of sorts. I think it's period for the third crusade era. I think a good solution would be you could get one of those types of helms and wear a THICK padded arming cap covered with maille. Sure it wont be as protective as plate but I have fought with my friend in mine and it worked pretty well, of course if you have a big enough coif you could always add a plate of boiled leather to the back UNDER the coif which would protect rather well and since it's under the maille no one would ever notice.

[B. Patricius]

That leather piece under the coif is a good idea Sir Ulrich.  Unfortunately, the SCA and Adrian Empire require the back of the helm to be plate, and I believe for good reasons.  So it all depends on what Silvanus is looking at the helm to be used for. 

I, unfortunately am going to have two helms, at the least.  One for live steel and SCA combat, and one that's completely period for DOK type re-creation.

Also, if you've ever suffered bad whiplash, you'll know why the back of the head is important to cover... let alone if you've ever had the disfortune to see bad back of head trauma as I have.  I'll always do a little bit extra myself. 

[Silvanus]

Thanks for the feedback, gentlemen. Looks like I'll need to do more research if I want something in my period. The bottom line is I need some real head protection for sparring. Otherwise I am happy with my current helm for walking around. Attaching the mail at the back of a more period helm will look nice, but it will not protect my poor head and neck from the likes of Sir Brian.
 I do like this one, Patricius.


So its either that one or something like Sir Wolfs but with maille for either one.

My neck hurts.

[B. Patricius]

Silvanus,

all of the helms I showed you are period, with modifications to protect the back of the head.  Then you just cover the back of it like that Hospitaller had with his leather scales or mail, as you've said  just throwing out ideas as I'm still trying to decide mine as well.

here's some images of those helms showing the backs a bit better:
Steel Mastery:


IceFalcon
- that helm is designed and built for BOTN!! plenty tough and protective

West Coast Armoury


I'm either going with the simple flat top-helm with simple front face and hidden back protection, much like the Hospitaller
or
A Phrygian Italo-Norman with flutes, simple front face plate, and hidden back protection myself.  And I'm doing Third Crusade, 1190 era.  Also of note there's a topic over at MyArmoury and ArmourArchive about an extant, archeaological find of a faceplate tophelm... although there's still debate on if it is in fact a real one.  When I find that topic again, I'll post it here.  Hopefully Sir Ian sees this, I think I saw him mention that helm either here or elsewhere.

[Sir James A]

I, unfortunately am going to have two helms, at the least

I believe you meant "fortunately" and not "unfortunately"

[B. Patricius]

I, unfortunately am going to have two helms, at the least

I believe you meant "fortunately" and not "unfortunately"

I guess it's all in the eyes of the beholder! Touche Sir James! Touche

[Silvanus]

Well, here is one that I have found that I think will fit the historical bill.



At this site: http://www.outfit4events.com/usd/product/466-early-crusader-great-helm/?decorative=nocategory%2F557-medieval-costumes-ladies%2Fcategory%2F173-cloak-pins%2Fcategory%2F8-axes%2F

I really can't find anything online produced in the States with this quality for this tight period. This is from the Czech Republic.

[Sir Wolf]

that is nice.

[B. Patricius]

That is a nice period helm!  I only have two concerns about it:
1) is that enough back of head protection?
2) the cross as a nasal, from everything I have found within secondary sources on the Knights Templar (effigies, paintings, murals, frescos) would be considered superfluous and against the Rule.

Beyond those two concerns, it's a nice helm!
Also, TherionArms, which as far as I know is a dealer of sorts, not a manufacturer (his stuff looks like GDFB) is in the US with US customer service.  Here's some of his helms for consideration:

http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1275.html looks more 13th century though

http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1106.html realistically this will be my choice as it fits function and doesn't have anything that could be construed as "superfluous"

http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1404.html this one too is cool, although it's not quite a Norman, and not quite a Phrygian, and to be honest, it just seems to be a "generic compromise" although a nice helm still.

just other ideas I thought to throw out there.  Also if you portray a turcopole (temporary member of the Knights Templar, who could have been married even, although their wives would be in a convent for the period) you'd have more leeway on the helm, as it is and was one of the more expensive pieces of equipment.

YIS
B. Patricius

[Silvanus]

Patricius, thanks for all your help and input. You are a great resource. I did see those helms from Therion, from whom I've ordered before happily. But I was under the impression that this helm -

was not quite my period due to the fact that it has plate protection in the back.... And I like the third image also, but was concerned that the eye slots were too large for safety purposes. Well, if you think that the Therion is adequate, I can opt for that one. My specific kit is that of a Templar sergeant. And while I have great respect for the Turcopoles for their aid and skill, the only other persona I could ever adopt would be that of a full Templar Kinght, perhaps one day.

Thanks again. All your help and suggestions are always welcome.

Silvanus

[B. Patricius]

was not quite my period due to the fact that it has plate protection in the back.... And I like the third image also, but was concerned that the eye slots were too large for safety purposes. Well, if you think that the Therion is adequate, I can opt for that one. My specific kit is that of a Templar sergeant. And while I have great respect for the Turcopoles for their aid and skill, the only other persona I could ever adopt would be that of a full Templar Kinght, perhaps one day.

Thanks again. All your help and suggestions are always welcome.

Silvanus

Silvanus, I totally understand where you're coming from.  I, in fact, need to have two personas because I wish to be a full Templar and get it "right" for demonstrations... but I also need a secular 13th century knight for my lady that I can give her all the chivlarous pomp and circumstance she deserves! 

It's interesting, the helmet that you posted from therion that you said you already own
is in fact the one that I wish to use for my Templar portrayal when protection is not needed (like wandering around like a BAMF at RenFaires and DOK ) I love that helm as it is so simple.

On that note, I believe that helm is as close to period as we can get for late 12th century with a face-plate other than the phrygians which had faceplates starting earlier than the standard "Latin" fair of the Franks.  From what I've learned, they picked up the earliest form of Phrygian from the Saracens, and then saw their usefulness and used them.  The development of that helm in the Mediterranean is well documented and it seems to pick up from there.

I believe the helm that you own, and that I want, is the safest of the "Latin" styles for our portrayals.  It has no "extras" at all, which is paramount for a full Templar be they SGT or Knight.  As a general rule, I play it safest first, and the compromises in my kit I make (for example right now I'm wearing butted mail) I explain the why of that, and what was appropriate.

The helm you posted, as nice as it is, I don't think it'd offer any more back of head protection than the one you already own from Albion.  Beyond that, I observed something that may in fact lead to more inspiration:

I believe the first helm you posted from Cult of Athena:
is in fact the same helm as the one that you and I both enjoy that Hospitaller wearing!


note the nasal and the form of the jawline, they're as close as one can get to identical!  I believe he just added the leather scales to it, and the leather trim above. 
Also another helm I forgot to post on here that I enjoy that has precedence to ca. 1200 by GDFB on Therion's site:


I also did find out that in fact Cult of Athena and TherionArms both carry GDFB.

My only concern with one that has full plate on the lower rather than bars is the weight.  Bars, hidden with a mail or leather aventail can look quite amazing.  There's a local KSCA that wears this Norman helmet from windrosearmory

which I then found they also have an Italo-Norman/Phrygian as well


I have personally held, worn and fought in Sir Christopher's Aventailed Norman.  It's beyond amazing.  Also, looking at his avatar here, Thorsteinn appears to wear a similar helmet in SCA combat.

I also agree the eye slots are most crucial.  The ability to see, while protecting our eyes is crucial, especially in any kind of visored/faced helm.  Adrian Empire for example, has a 3/4" in ANY direction maximum distance for their eyeslots for rebated steel combat.  A rule I firmly believe is worth it.  That's also why I've just accepted I will have two helms:
1 for living history
1 for combat
that may be exactly the route you may want to take as well.  Especially since if I read your reply correctly you already own probably my favorite "period" tophelm for a Templar kit.

And it is a pleasure to share what I know.  I've learned all I have from the humble chair and laptop with the help of google and triple checking sources through museum archives.  I admit, my classes in Archaeology help, but it by no means makes me an expert.  Any and all mistakes are my own.   Also, if you'd like to check out my pinterest board: http://pinterest.com/tanukidomo/13th-17th-cent-europewma/ it's fairly widespread in eras and cultures, but it is a bit Holy Orders centric

Also, just last year Sir Ulrich picked up this helm from Sir William

here's his thread: http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?topic=2009.0
maybe they (Sir Ulrich and Sir William) will be able to help us out as well.