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Author Topic: Chausses  (Read 13865 times)

Silvanus

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Chausses
« on: 2012-10-27, 05:07:17 »
Time to start thinking of new projects now that the season is over.... In my never-ending pursuit of a more comfortable method of holding up my closed maille chausses, I am thinking of buying these:

http://medievalcollectibles.com/p-3153-upper-leg-padding-with-steel.aspx

and attaching the chausses over them with lacing, then running a belt through the loop on the top of the padding.

Currently I have a series of laces attached from the top of the maille to a wide, thick belt. But after a few hours, no matter what, the weight and drag on my hips is almost agonizing - especially after sparring. I've also tried other suspension systems for the chausses, such as a harness that is worn over the shoulders and attached in front and back. But the draw on my collar bone was as bad as that on my hips with the belt system. I've seen the historical pictures and diagrams of how they were held up (a few laces in front and back hooked to a belt) but I can't see that way working at all.... Do we really know how they were held up? I've also looked over some of our group's methods in the photos here. How do you all fare after several hours of walking/sparring? Comfortable?

Right now, I am happy enough with my kit and harness - except for a reliable (and relatively comfortable) method of hold up the chausses.
« Last Edit: 2012-10-27, 05:08:29 by Silvanus »
'Nolite arbitrari quia venerim mittere pacem in terram; non veni pacem mittere sed gladium.' - Apocalypsis 22:21

Bernarr

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #1 on: 2012-10-27, 06:41:20 »
I've heard REALLY good reviews about one of Frank's items over at viking leather-
http://www.vikingleathercrafts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33_34&products_id=264

The latest one I remember seeing is on AA, which also prompted me to order one myself. As a fat bastard myself, I appreciate reviews from other weight-challenged folks!  :D
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=155533

Silvanus

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #2 on: 2012-10-27, 07:12:02 »
Wow, that does look like a great solution, Bernarr. And the price is right. Looks like I'll be ordering one  :D Though I might shoot him a question about how he'd suggest attaching the chausses to the belt. You wouldn't happen to have any photos of how you have yours attached, would you?

Thanks so much for the reply!
« Last Edit: 2012-10-27, 07:13:35 by Silvanus »
'Nolite arbitrari quia venerim mittere pacem in terram; non veni pacem mittere sed gladium.' - Apocalypsis 22:21

Bernarr

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #3 on: 2012-10-27, 10:28:26 »
I didn't get mine yet, but you'll need to punch holes to match up to your cuisses, which is what it was designed for. Since you're going to be attaching chain, rather than leather/plate, you can punch holes wherever, I suppose. If you have a pair of plate or leather cuisses you may want to use, I'd say line those up and punch for them, then just string your chain to those holes.
You'd put the belt and your legs on, then mark where the holes should be on the belt. For example, if you had these kind of legs, you'd mark where the holes on the leather tabs at the top rest on the belt-
http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=74

I'm thinking you could also use them for strapped legs, like these-
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/rondell-splinted-legs-with-maltese-cross-piercework-ff8081811fa08c3d011fa93a818805a5-p.html
You'd just have to mark it similarly and then attach the straps.

I'm at work right now, so I didn't have time to go through all the results, but there are a lot when searching for cuisse belt on AA-
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=CUISSE+BELT&start=1


PS: No worries on the reply, comfort is key, if I find something that can help, I always share!
If you end up waiting to do it, or don't order the belt for a while, I'll post some pictures when I get mine and have a chance to get them punched.


I did get to go through a couple, apparently he changed the design a bit from the one currently on the site. He posted pics in this thread-
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=154499&p=2343458
« Last Edit: 2012-10-27, 13:02:38 by Bernarr »

Sir Edward

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #4 on: 2012-10-27, 13:21:56 »

Joe Metz recommended using a pourpoint for the mail chausses. Of course, that's a 14th century solution, so it's mixing periods a little, but the beauty of a pourpoint is that when tightened properly, it distributes a lot of the weight onto your torso and not just your hips or shoulders. But they have to be worn tightly, so when you get one, it should be possible to tighten it without closing it completely in the middle.

What I've been doing so far with my mail chausses is to just use a leather belt, and also have trouble with it getting painful over time. I find that to minimize that, I have to make it OMGWTF TIGHT. That is, whatever hole on the belt I would tighten it to in order to hold up pants, I have to tighten it probably a good 6" beyond that. Otherwise it'll find its way down over the corners of my hip bones and start hurting BADLY. This will get me through 8 hours of a renfaire day, but it'll still be aching by the end of that.

So I'm tempted to try the pourpoint, since I already have one for my 14th century kit. But my chausses are set up right now to use a belt loop.

The padded cuisse with metal knee that you linked is sized to fit over mail. Their smallest size is pretty big on most average-size guys if worn without the mail. I took out the leather on the back of it and just stitched it shut to make it a comfortable size for me. With any of the lacing there, it was too big to be worn alone. And I wanted mine as an alternative on days that I just really don't want to put on the mail. What some folks are doing is making a half-chausse that hangs down from the padding cuisse, so you get the look of having it over mail, but without the added weight.
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Silvanus

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #5 on: 2012-10-27, 16:17:10 »
Thanks, Bernarr and Sir Edward. Sure am glad I asked for some advice before clicking the 'buy' button. Always a good idea. Sir Edward, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad someone else feels my pain.  ;D

I got in touch with Frank at Viking Leather and he answered a couple questions about attaching the chausses to the belt. I will go with that for now. The benefit of the belt is a little more protection in the mid-section. I've been clobbered with a mace in the kidney before, on a day when I wasn't wearing my gambeson. An interesting feeling.

I am hoping to God this will be the solution I'm looking for. If not, I'll try the pourpoint.
'Nolite arbitrari quia venerim mittere pacem in terram; non veni pacem mittere sed gladium.' - Apocalypsis 22:21

Sir James A

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #6 on: 2012-10-28, 01:45:27 »
Frank's (or any other, like Pitbull) C-Belt design is different from a regular belt. On a regular belt, it's just a really wide triangle. A C-belt has a mild curvature to it. So instead of being a straight cut, it's cut on a very mild curve. What happens from that is the top edge of the belt is ~1" smaller overall diameter than the lower edge. Hard to show with ascii text, but basically:

Regular belt profile
| |  {BODY}  | |

C-Belt profile
/ /  {BODY}  \ \

The upper edge sitting tighter helps reduce the "belt sag" you get with a regular belt, where it slowly rides down on you. It'll still need to be tight, but less tight than a regular belt. It does still have the potential to fall completely off, since there's nothing holding it in place vertically other than your own girth, and the more comfortable (loose) you have it, the more it's going to want to wander when you move and the chausses weight tugs on it....

I've got a C-Belt by Pitbull, and while I did like it at first testings, it has a couple issues; the biggest is it digs into my thighs when sitting, though I've heard Frank's / Viking Leather's is a softer leather and is comfortable to sit in. As far as pointing for chausses, there's a long thread by Sir Ulrich about it - if you have trouble, post up, we'll help out. Alternative solution below, too.

I do second the suggestion of the pourpoint. It's a later period solution, but it is period - and it's also hidden under everything when all is said and done, so only we know of your sins. :D The biggest benefit of the pourpoint vs C-Belt is that the pourpoint is a vest, and goes over your shoulders; it doesn't have a lot of sag potential. It's also a multi-purpose garment that you can use for plate legs later, should you come to the shiny side. ;)

If you want a cheap and dirty "it works and it's hidden" solution, look at the pictures labeled "Fauld" here - http://james-anderson-iii.com/tutorials/pages/how-a-man-shall-be-armed - it's how I've done my fauld so far with a "cheater harness". I made it from scratch, but if you added X straps to a basic belt, that's all it is. Early transitional armor with just a breastplate (no backplate) used an X strap configuration for the upper straps, so it's quasi-period. The big benefit on this style vs the c-belt style is you don't have the "tabs" of the C-belt, just a simple standard belt that you can punch a few point holes through. The closer you have the X strap and pointing holes together, the better.

Then to actually point the chausses to the belt - for my "stocking" mail chausses, I added a leather strip at the top and I lace them to a pourpoint exactly like with the leather tabs on plate legs:



If it's a combat thing (as you mentioned the clubbin'), the C-Belt will give extra protection on the thighs, and is a wider belt around the back/kidney area. The pourpoint is slightly padded too, but probably twice the cost - so checking the C-Belt first seems like a good option. If you're not happy with it, give some of the other options a try. :)
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Silvanus

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #7 on: 2012-10-28, 12:40:33 »
Thanks, Sir James. I hope the C-Belt works. Mine is on order. And your photos of the leather strip at the top of your chausses were among the ideas I has looked at. I may still do that even with the C-Belt. It can only improve things. Thanks also for your arming photos. I had actually made a fauld-like harness and used it for a while to hold up the chausses. But at the end of the day, the strain on my shoulders and collar bone made me go back to a belt. Although I see you are wearing yours over your padded jacket or gambeson. Would that I had thought of that.

Well, it will be a couple weeks or more before the belt is made and arrives. I will give an update when they do and I have tried them out!

Thanks for all the great advice and tips, my lords!
'Nolite arbitrari quia venerim mittere pacem in terram; non veni pacem mittere sed gladium.' - Apocalypsis 22:21

Sir James A

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #8 on: 2012-10-29, 15:10:27 »
Although I see you are wearing yours over your padded jacket or gambeson. Would that I had thought of that.

It's actually an unpadded arming coat by Revival Clothing. I do need to put some padding, but not from the fauld - after a few hours, the weight of the gorget, which has the breastplate *over* it, helmet attached to it, and pauldrons hanging directly from it ... I get that same collarbone / shoulder digging. A pourpoint is much more comfortable since the fabric is softer and wider at the shoulders, and properly worn, there's little to no tension on the shoulders themselves. Sir Ian has a great picture showing that. :)

Edit to add - The C-Belt will definitely work. It'll come down to personal preference on if you're comfortable in it, and if getting it tight enough to not sag is uncomfortable or comfortable.
« Last Edit: 2012-10-29, 15:11:45 by James Anderson III »
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Ian

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #9 on: 2012-10-29, 22:52:10 »
I believe this is the photo Sir James is referring to.  Please note that the pourpoint does not meet at the center.  This is absolutely required for the pourpoint to fit properly and do its job.  The pourpoint must be worn tight and low over the hips and lower portion of the torso.  If it meets in the middle, the tension is taken off the garment and immediately transferred to the shoulders.  By keeping the garment tight, a weighty leg harness or maille chausses will not put any tension on the shoulder when you point them to your garment.  Note how I can easily put my finger underneath the shoulder of the pourpoint while wearing plate cuisses and there's no tension on the shoulder.  These are 'period' for 14th century plate leg harnesses, and we just don't know if they are or not for earlier periods, but I know that Joe Metz wears one, and he does maille period armor almost exclusively.  You could in theory completely cut the shoulder seams apart and it would not affect the function of this garment one bit.  Being made of material, it remains flexible and comfortable over long periods and evenly distributes weight across the hips and lower torso without digging or biting in to the body.


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Sir James A

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #10 on: 2012-10-30, 01:15:47 »
That's the one, Sir Ian. Excellent description of it, too.
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Silvanus

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #11 on: 2012-10-30, 01:47:17 »
Wow. I can see how that would be a great way to hold up maile chausses. If the VL c-belt disappoints, I will find a pourpoint, period or not. Thanks, Ian!
'Nolite arbitrari quia venerim mittere pacem in terram; non veni pacem mittere sed gladium.' - Apocalypsis 22:21

Sir Brian

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #12 on: 2012-10-30, 14:15:21 »
Yeah this off season I need to take mine to Sallie Jones to have it taken in since I've lost weight and is now a bit baggy on me even when completely laced up.  :-\
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Re: Chausses
« Reply #13 on: 2012-10-30, 15:04:19 »
Mine barely works at the moment, as I can lace it completely shut now. I may have to go down a size with mine at some point, or have it taken in a little.
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Sir James A

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Re: Chausses
« Reply #14 on: 2012-10-30, 16:10:45 »
Yeah this off season I need to take mine to Sallie Jones to have it taken in since I've lost weight and is now a bit baggy on me even when completely laced up.  :-\
Mine barely works at the moment, as I can lace it completely shut now. I may have to go down a size with mine at some point, or have it taken in a little.

Toss it in the washing machine. Took a good 6" or so of girth off my last one.

Sigh.

:D
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