Schielhau Krumphau (video)

[Sir Edward]

[Thorsteinn]

While I could do without the music, the exercises reminds me of the demo team practice my old dojo used to have.

[SirNathanQ]

Hey look, thrusting! I might want to learn this. Could we have a go at figuring this one out on the 15th?

[Sir James A]

That looks like some serious speed. So much for the "huge and unwieldy" european swords myth.

[Sir Brian]

Hey look, thrusting! I might want to learn this. Could we have a go at figuring this one out on the 15th?

Sure we can have a more structured session on the 15th. Observe though that passive agent is countering the active agent's initital cutting attack with a Krumphau/Shielhau combination finishing off with the thrust. 

[Ian]

I love these guys!  Here's a couple more vids from presumably the same school





This level of speed and power is what's missing from just about every WMA school I've ever researched in the US short of ARMA (yeah, say what you will about John Clements' personality, but he gets this very important aspect of martial arts that most other HEMA/WMA organizations seem to ignore; the requirement for power and intent).  That missing element is oft why I just have a hard time getting in to it myself.  I understand that slower speed drilling as a safety measure is important at first, but a lot of techniques do not behave at half-speed like they would at full speed.  I believe a lot of schools make concessions and compromise on historical technique as a result.  You can not dismiss or rethink a technique based on it's behavior at half-speed.  Train like you fight, fight like you train.  If you truly want to become proficient at and master a martial art, then it must be conducted with speed, intent, and power.  Danger is an inherent risk, after all, this is a martial art.

[Thorsteinn]

That missing element is oft why I just have a hard time getting in to it myself.  I understand that slower speed drilling as a safety measure is important at first, but a lot of techniques do not behave at half-speed like they would at full speed.

 Thats why I advise many folks to watch Count Sir Marc de Arundel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschine/videos?query=marc

I would also advise Count Sir Thjothrekr Eiriksen if there were vids of him being awesome.

Vid of Marc:


See me in the blue hood?

[Sir James A]

This level of speed and power is what's missing from just about every WMA school I've ever researched in the US short of ARMA (yeah, say what you will about John Clements' personality, but he gets this very important aspect of martial arts that most other HEMA/WMA organizations seem to ignore; the requirement for power and intent).  That missing element is oft why I just have a hard time getting in to it myself.  I understand that slower speed drilling as a safety measure is important at first, but a lot of techniques do not behave at half-speed like they would at full speed.  I believe a lot of schools make concessions and compromise on historical technique as a result.  You can not dismiss or rethink a technique based on it's behavior at half-speed.  Train like you fight, fight like you train.  If you truly want to become proficient at and master a martial art, then it must be conducted with speed, intent, and power.  Danger is an inherent risk, after all, this is a martial art.

Very well said, Ian.

[Sir Edward]

This level of speed and power is what's missing from just about every WMA school I've ever researched in the US short of ARMA (yeah, say what you will about John Clements' personality, but he gets this very important aspect of martial arts that most other HEMA/WMA organizations seem to ignore; the requirement for power and intent).  That missing element is oft why I just have a hard time getting in to it myself.  I understand that slower speed drilling as a safety measure is important at first, but a lot of techniques do not behave at half-speed like they would at full speed.  I believe a lot of schools make concessions and compromise on historical technique as a result.  You can not dismiss or rethink a technique based on it's behavior at half-speed.  Train like you fight, fight like you train.  If you truly want to become proficient at and master a martial art, then it must be conducted with speed, intent, and power.  Danger is an inherent risk, after all, this is a martial art.

Be careful about discounting all of the HEMA groups though, there's more interest in speed and intent out there as time goes on. The MD-KDF guys are pretty intense, as an example.

At VAF, we don't always ramp up the speed, since they're a business with liabilities. But on our own time, some of us fight with a lot more intensity than we will in class, but with an eye toward safety, since you absolutely have to, otherwise people break bones and then can't play anymore.

Keep in mind also, a lot of these vids are planned. They're working on specific combinations of techniques, so there aren't many surprises, and thus it's safer to go fast and hard.

Any time you're fighting in a more freeform manner, some considerations have to be made for safety.

[Sir Brian]

Be careful about discounting all of the HEMA groups though, there's more interest in speed and intent out there as time goes on. The MD-KDF guys are pretty intense, as an example.

What? - No love for MASHS? 
...And here I thought Larry totally convinced you of the necessity of having a chest protector when you train with us!

At VAF, we don't always ramp up the speed, since they're a business with liabilities. But on our own time, some of us fight with a lot more intensity than we will in class, but with an eye toward safety, since you absolutely have to, otherwise people break bones and then can't play anymore.
Keep in mind also, a lot of these vids are planned. They're working on specific combinations of techniques, so there aren't many surprises, and thus it's safer to go fast and hard.
Any time you're fighting in a more freeform manner, some considerations have to be made for safety.

Hear hear! Well stated Sir Edward, after all we are the most important safety equipment for our fellow students of WMA. Just as in eastern martial arts the most dangerous sparring opponent you can face is a novice who has little or no control whereas the guys in the video demonstrated phenomenal blade control. 

[Sir Edward]

Be careful about discounting all of the HEMA groups though, there's more interest in speed and intent out there as time goes on. The MD-KDF guys are pretty intense, as an example.

What? - No love for MASHS? 
...And here I thought Larry totally convinced you of the necessity of having a chest protector when you train with us!

LOL, hehe, nah I was just mentioning the MD KDF guys in particular since one of their main guys, Jake Norwood, is former ARMA.    It's true though that some of the MASHS guys are super quick and can hit pretty hard.

All of this stuff is on a spectrum, as there are some groups that are pretty crazy, and others that take a more laid-back, analytical approach. Jake was telling me this weekend at NHSC that when he went to Swordfish, it was pretty intense. 30+ guys really trying to cleave each other in twain with those blunts.

[Joshua Santana]

Nice discussion and I agree with Sirs Edward and Brian.  Speed is not the same as intent, you can go slow but still can fight with intention.  That was a lesson learned at NHSC and training with safety in mind allows both partners to learn the technique before jumping on speed.  Speed and reflexes in free fencing or practice tend to the be the reasons why people either screw up a technique or cause a simple, yet unsafe accident (broken hands, wrists, fingers or worse flesh lacerations involved). 

Concerning the videos, I have seen those exact videos (barring Thoresteinn's video) and they were made to show the technique without a chance of injury or accidents.  The Scheilhau/Krumphau video is a nice video although I read in their comments that they practice both versions of the same cut (although I honestly don't know which versions) which would explain why their technique looks different than those we have seen in our sword classes.  The Scheilhau for me was two variations: the first is the classic High False Edge Cut as seen in Ringeck, the second is a low version which looks like a transition of right Pflug to Left Pflug but with an abzetsen and Ochs thrust added.  Whereas the Krumphau, pretty much the same except it is not an angled cut, but rather a straight cut downwards like a windshield wiper to the wrists.   

I also agree with Sir Edward concerning Jake Norwood on how he uses power and speed in which I profess to know from experience from a first time free fencing bout with him.  His closing into the Krieg is excellent and I admit to have taken a good number of shots from him and came out with no broken bones.  Still it was an excellent and informative bout and I learned how to improve my bouting performance. 

[Ian]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  The analogy would be no live-fire exercises in military training because someone might get hurt, or worse, killed.  When it comes to facing the enemy, they will pull no punches, and use no fancy laser-tag systems or simmunitions.  Their intent is to kill or maim you.  I intend to train to that level if I want to not end up dead, and I try to instill that in my flight students on a daily basis.  Many new officers in the military do not comprehend the fact that they are learning to fly a war machine designed to kill the enemy, or at least survive long enough to get your comrades out of harm's way.  I can't help but approach a martial art from the same position.  It's a martial art after all.  I firmly believe that you cannot master an art designed to kill, unless you're willing to accept some risk of injury.

My real point is, you will stop progressing as a practitioner unless you're willing to go to that next step.  You will plateau at a point in your training where you simply cannot get any better because the laws of physics prohibit techniques from behaving accurately at less than 'dangerous' speeds, or develop the reaction times to respond to full-speed techniques.  I have a hard time walking in the door knowing from the get-go, that a school will never let you progress to that level despite your actual skill.  Safety is of paramount importance when you're starting and you have little control or understanding.  But you have to go in to it accepting that you will hit a wall that can only be broken through with full speed and power.  Make no mistake, in period, these men were learning to kill, not to practice a recreational activity for a hobby.  That's what I find intriguing about ARMA.  John Clements understands that we're not going to walk in to a store and have to defend our lives or honor with a sword, but he does his best to bridge that gap in the modern psyche which is where the biggest disconnect is in several WMA schools.  My real beef with a lot of HEMA/WMA schools is that there's a zero-tolerance for a lot of willing students to accept risk, when that may be the only way to truly become great.  Even the SCA guys are proud of their battle-wounds.  A broken finger here or there is really part of the game, look at anyone in competitive or professional sports.  In the historical sports world, look at full contact jousters, getting hurt and breaking bones is inherent to the sport.  I'm not saying that's for everyone, but I hope that the sport progresses to a level where it's accepted on some level that certain individuals want to compete at that tier.

[Thorsteinn]

With Ian here. One must accept injury & pain to train the martial arts.

Here's a vid of me in a HEMA class @ half speed breaking a guys finger badly:

[Ian]

With Ian here. One must accept injury & pain to train the martial arts.

Here's a vid of me in a HEMA class @ half speed breaking a guys finger badly:

You're misunderstanding me.  The OPSO of my squadron broke his finger on a rope swing this weekend, so that doesn't mean anything.  Accidents can happen at any time, at any speed, that's not the point.  Injury is not a pre-requisite for being good.

This is what it boils down to for me:

Imagine you're wanting to get in to Mixed Martial Arts (MMA).  You shop around for a good MMA or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school.  You walk in to several martial arts studios.  The first one you walk in to has a bunch of kids and teens rolling around on the ground so their parents don't have to watch them for a couple hours.  The second one you walk in to has a bunch of women there for 'self-defense classes' and some guys who after you size them up you could clearly take on regardless of what color their belts are.  The 3rd school you walk in to has a bunch of athletes in it, training hard, crushing heavy bags and flags on the walls for the guys they've put in to professional MMA.  One look around that third school and every dude in there breathes fire and thirsts for the win.  There's a guy on the sidelines with his arm in a sling, but the guy's pure gristle, no ounce of fat on him, waiting for his moment to get back in the ring.

Which school do you want to go to?  I know my answer.  I just feel like so many HEMA/WMA schools are fall in to school 2.  I want to go to school 3.  That element is missing from the schools I've been exposed to, and I have a feeling that masters of defence in the 14th and 15th centuries tended to employ their skills at School 3 as well.