Gambesons from MATULS

[Sir Edward]

Sir James brings up a good point. However, I'd like to point out that a lot of the fatigue that people feel often comes from the body having to work harder at shedding heat. You can practice longer and harder if you can manage body heat better. So I wouldn't overlook this.

However, sometimes it's also the way in which you fight. I used to get exhausted in seconds when I first got started with the fighting. I don't think I'm all that much better conditioned now, only slightly. I think the biggest difference comes from learning to fight correctly, and to relax and not tense up. You can burn twice as much energy if you move inefficiently and stay tense.

[Sir Ulrich]

Yeah I think I may just go with the Matlus gambeson because well thats the EXACT design I want and I am tired of settling for ahistorical stuff or stuff from the wrong period just cause they cater to SCA fighting crowd which I have little interest in.

I got very little tolerance for the heat, thats the problem I have, in cold weather I can exert myself better than in hot weather. I am able to fight in medieval SCA style combat better WITHOUT a gambeson than I am WITH one due to the gambeson being TOO hot. In fact when I fight WITH a linen shirt on the sweat being wicked away by the linen is quite cool and refreshing, I assume the same would be with a gambeson that was linen. I get tired EASILY when it's hot outside, and everyone I talked to at the SCA thing said linen works wonders there. When I take stimulants like caffeine I usually can fight much easier and get less tired so maybe I should do that before fighting?

[Ian]

When I take stimulants like caffeine I usually can fight much easier and get less tired so maybe I should do that before fighting?

No.  Taking stimulants prior to any activity that will already put your heartrate at elevated levels is a bad idea and potentially dangerous, especially if you're not already in good shape.  If you're getting that tired from heat and/or not drinking caffeine prior to exertion, you really should consider getting yourself in to good cardiovascular condition first and foremost.  One, it's good for you in general, and two, it will give you a distinct advantage over the typical overweight reenactor who can't run 100 yards in armor without dying.  Remember, in period, knights weren't out of shape, they were professional warriors. They're lives literally depended on being in shape just as much as they depended on their training.  In my opinion, this is an aspect often overlooked by modern reenactor's.  Being skinny does not equal being in shape either.  If you want to fully embody the knightly ideal, don't get lazy when it comes to fitness.  Long story short, please don't rely on chemicals to boost performance and potentially injure yourself.

[Sir Ulrich]

I used to be in shape back in 2009-2010 and hiked regularly then some sh** happened and well lets see then I did nothing really for like 6 months due to depression and well that saps your strength and willpower to do anything really. Heat also saps my strength as does uncomfortable clothing and armor. I'm 100% serious, the legs they had me wear were like 5 sizes too big for me and hung by a belt rather than a pourpoint. Also I tend to get intimidated when people hit with full force contact, thats not something I am into in all honesty, whenever I duel usually I do light force contact with blunted steel weapons. Yet I did totally fine when I fought bare chested with a sword and shield, didn't tire that much that way. To put it blunt and honestly, heat saps my strength really easily and I dont know why. I did better the second time round though, so I think I may try it again despite myself HATING the armor I had to wear.

[Thorsteinn]

Me in my gambeseon I made from 3 layers of linen I got from Fabric-Store.com.

It is my very favorite piece of armour. I too have heat isses and fought in a hot, humid, & dusty SCA War this weekend. This gambeseon is the reason why.

Now for a period helm liner backed with sorbothane.

And yes, dropping 22.5 lbs and using my inhaler helps too.

[Sir Ulrich]

Yeah I might consider some custom work if I can find a proper period pattern for a 13th century gambeson. All the SCA fighters I talked to said a few layers of linen is all you really need for a gambeson under maille or plate and not the "stuffing" as the stuffing is relatively unnecessary unless you're gonna wear it as stand alone armor.

[Joshua Santana]

All I can say Sir Ulrich is this:  Go for the historically accurate gambeson.  When you heat up, drink water, that helps in cooling down (do not take caffeine before a fight less end up being spastic during the fight)  Finally, up to you whether you want the padding or not.  Since you have mail, I would opt for the few linen layers.

[Sir Edward]

That's true, gambesons under armor don't need to be very thick. Another thing I can recommend is to soak yourself in the arming garments if it's a particularly hot day. Part of what kept knights cool back in the day is that the gambeson under the mail would get soaked with sweat, and transmit the heat to the outer layer where it would be evaporating. The problem is that it takes time for this process to start. It'll feel really uncomfortable at first, but pouring water all down your gambeson will get it started, and then you'll adjust to it and it'll start helping.

[Thorsteinn]

That's true, gambesons under armor don't need to be very thick. Another thing I can recommend is to soak yourself in the arming garments if it's a particularly hot day. .... ......but pouring water all down your gambeson will get it started, and then you'll adjust to it and it'll start helping.

 

I KNEW I forgot something this weekend. A few bottles of water and I could have fixed that on the field.

[Joshua Santana]

That's true, gambesons under armor don't need to be very thick. Another thing I can recommend is to soak yourself in the arming garments if it's a particularly hot day. Part of what kept knights cool back in the day is that the gambeson under the mail would get soaked with sweat, and transmit the heat to the outer layer where it would be evaporating. The problem is that it takes time for this process to start. It'll feel really uncomfortable at first, but pouring water all down your gambeson will get it started, and then you'll adjust to it and it'll start helping.

I can say the same idea applies to me wearing an arming doublet on a hot, sunny day.  The only difference I can say is that the voiders would be the only parts that would heat up.  But water is recommended.  Another idea would be to train outdoors with a kit or harness on to make the adjustments to both heat, soaking the sweat and as physical conditioning (which is how I believe Knights of old survived summer days), but bring water as always.   

[Sir Brian]

That's true, gambesons under armor don't need to be very thick. Another thing I can recommend is to soak yourself in the arming garments if it's a particularly hot day. .... ......but pouring water all down your gambeson will get it started, and then you'll adjust to it and it'll start helping.

Or you can just soak a cotton undershirt and then wring it out before putting on your gambeson. You could also modify a t-shirt as I did with pockets to hold flat ice packets which will get you an additional 2-4 hours depending on the temperature, of course you'll actually shiver with cold as you first put your armor on.

[Sir James A]

I used to be in shape back in 2009-2010 and hiked regularly then some sh** happened and well lets see then I did nothing really for like 6 months due to depression and well that saps your strength and willpower to do anything really. Heat also saps my strength as does uncomfortable clothing and armor. I'm 100% serious, the legs they had me wear were like 5 sizes too big for me and hung by a belt rather than a pourpoint. Also I tend to get intimidated when people hit with full force contact, thats not something I am into in all honesty, whenever I duel usually I do light force contact with blunted steel weapons. Yet I did totally fine when I fought bare chested with a sword and shield, didn't tire that much that way. To put it blunt and honestly, heat saps my strength really easily and I dont know why. I did better the second time round though, so I think I may try it again despite myself HATING the armor I had to wear.

I know what you mean, heat is really rough on me too, I'm naturally warm so the heat amps it up even more. I can start sweating before I've even got a full harness on. I do drink like a camel, though.

If the armor isn't comfortable, it's not sized right, or something else is wrong. Is it plate? Post some pictures of it on, and maybe we can give some feedback. I think you should have a go at making a gambeson. In the pics I posted recently with my "full plate" harness, I'm wearing single-layer linen chausses, braies, a t-shirt, and an arming coat - which has no padding, it's just a thick two-layer garment with arming points and lace-tight sleeves. With mail, you'll want more padding than plate since the mail, of course, gives, where plate does not. But you don't need a silly amount, either.

For contact force, if you're sparring / dueling with somebody and they're hitting too hard, tell them to scale back the power. If they won't, don't continue. If they don't respect your wishes for a safe battle, they are not worth the battle.

[Joshua Santana]

Or you can just soak a cotton undershirt and then wring it out before putting on your gambeson. You could also modify a t-shirt as I did with pockets to hold flat ice packets which will get you an additional 2-4 hours depending on the temperature, of course you'll actually shiver with cold as you first put your armor on.

Good idea.

I know what you mean, heat is really rough on me too, I'm naturally warm so the heat amps it up even more. I can start sweating before I've even got a full harness on. I do drink like a camel, though.

If the armor isn't comfortable, it's not sized right, or something else is wrong. Is it plate? Post some pictures of it on, and maybe we can give some feedback. I think you should have a go at making a gambeson. In the pics I posted recently with my "full plate" harness, I'm wearing single-layer linen chausses, braies, a t-shirt, and an arming coat - which has no padding, it's just a thick two-layer garment with arming points and lace-tight sleeves. With mail, you'll want more padding than plate since the mail, of course, gives, where plate does not. But you don't need a silly amount, either.

For contact force, if you're sparring / dueling with somebody and they're hitting too hard, tell them to scale back the power. If they won't, don't continue. If they don't respect your wishes for a safe battle, they are not worth the battle.

I agree on that. 

[Sir William]

What Joshua said.  It is much easier to deal with if you are more used to it.  I'm considering doing my walks with a hauberk on just to get used to the weight of it again.  I typically wear it around the house for extended periods...or rather, I used to.  I've gotten very lazy these last couple of years.

[Sir Ulrich]

It's just maille I wear and it's the wings that flap around that make it uncomfortable to wear, make it feel excessively heavy. For the plate it's borrowed SCA combat plate I got at the medieval club that isnt even mine to begin with, doesnt fit me at all cause I am thinner than average. I need custom plate no matter what.

Yeah I would wear mine more often if I could get it on without assistance. I literally need 2 people to help hold it up so I can squirm my way into it. Still havent figured out how to get it on without assistance.