No Mind. Do you use it? How?

[Thorsteinn]

Asperger's is a bitch to deal with. Especially in the Martial Arts. To combat this I use No Mind.

Whenever I fight, and can use the Mind of No Mind, I am awesome and cool and feel godly though I rarely remember the fight.

If not then I may win, and remember the fight, but I feel like a shlub.

I have no one way to get the the place that is no place. How do you travel to the place that is not?

Examples of No Mind:

[Sir Edward]

I know what you mean. I'm very analytical of my opponent prior to the first strike, but then once I'm "in the moment", I just flow with it and have a hard time remembering exactly what happened. It might not quite be the "no mind" thing, but it's more muscle memory and reflex than thinking. I actually have to work at bringing the thought back into it so that I can choose techniques that are tactically appropriate rather than just being reactive. It's a difficult balance that I seek.

[Joshua Santana]

Asperger's is a bitch to deal with. Especially in the Martial Arts.

Can say the same with my Autism.  To combat this, I unleash my analytical prowess and can determine strategies and counter defenses without having to use the "No Mind".  Think of what Sherlock Holmes did in the bar fight scene.

Sherlock Holmes Fight Scene

I'm very analytical of my opponent prior to the first strike, but then once I'm "in the moment", I just flow with it and have a hard time remembering exactly what happened. It might not quite be the "no mind" thing, but it's more muscle memory and reflex than thinking. I actually have to work at bringing the thought back into it so that I can choose techniques that are tactically appropriate rather than just being reactive. It's a difficult balance that I seek.]I'm very analytical of my opponent prior to the first strike, but then once I'm "in the moment", I just flow with it and have a hard time remembering exactly what happened. It might not quite be the "no mind" thing, but it's more muscle memory and reflex than thinking. I actually have to work at bringing the thought back into it so that I can choose techniques that are tactically appropriate rather than just being reactive. It's a difficult balance that I seek.

That is an issue most fighters deal with.  It is about muscle memory and it is difficult to develop it but once you get there it becomes a game of instinct.  How I see choosing tactically appropriate techniques, i would analyze the opponents attack in half a second and use Fuhlen and Indes (Feeling and Instance or In time according to Liechtenauer) and respond accordingly; or what I would call "Call and Response".   

[Sir Edward]

I've been doing the Liechtenauer thing for over 5 years, and I still struggle with Fuhlen. And I know it's not just me, as most of the folks I fence with tend to have a habit of taking off and changing angle of attacks almost immediately, without doing bind-work.

We did a cool thing in class this week (an idea that I think came from Jake Norwood initially). We bouted at speed with steel swords, but with a small loop made with zip-ties placed over the swords so that the blades have to stay in contact. The zip-tie is loose enough to slide up and down the blade, but if it gets flung off or broken, whoever is at fault has to do push-ups. So it's an entire fight done in the bind. It's nuts. But man, what a great way to practice it.

[Joshua Santana]

I've been doing the Liechtenauer thing for over 5 years, and I still struggle with Fuhlen. And I know it's not just me, as most of the folks I fence with tend to have a habit of taking off and changing angle of attacks almost immediately, without doing bind-work.

We did a cool thing in class this week (an idea that I think came from Jake Norwood initially). We bouted at speed with steel swords, but with a small loop made with zip-ties placed over the swords so that the blades have to stay in contact. The zip-tie is loose enough to slide up and down the blade, but if it gets flung off or broken, whoever is at fault has to do push-ups. So it's an entire fight done in the bind. It's nuts. But man, what a great way to practice it.

To me, Fuhlen is more like what I would call "Bind Sensitivity" and one can say that Indes is more reaction/decision making in a split second. 

That is an interesting exercise, I think I know where Norwood would have came up with it I just have to find the image. 

[Sir Edward]

Right, exactly. We get into a bad habit of skipping fuhlen altogether and react as if they're hard of the sword all the time.

[Thorsteinn]

As practitioner of No Mind, and having fought at the bind and not. I would say that, if my opponent is stronger than I in the bind and I am stronger out of it then I will feel that, and seek to not fight there. If we are tied to the bind then I will get rid of the swords to go to fists or daggers.

A friend of mine told me he can tell when I switch because my pupils dilate and my Speed, Accuracy, & Power all go up by 25-50% while I will be less tired after. Essentially No Mind allows me to fight my True Fight and thus I'm at my most efficient (having essentially gotten out of my own way).

And that is my problem practicing it as well. I can not do No Mind outside of sparring as I MUST be free to do the techniques, speed, and power that feel right.

When I fight with the intent of trying not to bring power & speed to the equation become clumsy like trying to talk with a stutter. I want to be able to practice the Place of No Place without having my kit on but I don't know how.

I feel am trying to explain the touch of the sea to a desert when I speak of this.


 The videos below should help I hope.

[Sir Brian]

I'm very analytical of my opponent prior to the first strike, but then once I'm "in the moment", I just flow with it and have a hard time remembering exactly what happened. It might not quite be the "no mind" thing, but it's more muscle memory and reflex than thinking. I actually have to work at bringing the thought back into it so that I can choose techniques that are tactically appropriate rather than just being reactive. It's a difficult balance that I seek.]I'm very analytical of my opponent prior to the first strike, but then once I'm "in the moment", I just flow with it and have a hard time remembering exactly what happened. It might not quite be the "no mind" thing, but it's more muscle memory and reflex than thinking. I actually have to work at bringing the thought back into it so that I can choose techniques that are tactically appropriate rather than just being reactive. It's a difficult balance that I seek.

That is an issue most fighters deal with.  It is about muscle memory and it is difficult to develop it but once you get there it becomes a game of instinct.  How I see choosing tactically appropriate techniques, i would analyze the opponents attack in half a second and use Fuhlen and Indes (Feeling and Instance or In time according to Liechtenauer) and respond accordingly; or what I would call "Call and Response".

Assuming I am dueling someone I have never fought before or had very few engagements with, then I typically take a few seconds to observe my opponent before initiating an attack if they do not initiate one first. I look for them to make some obvious mistakes such as frequently changing guards within my measure, especially if I haven’t changed my guard. I also take note if they are ‘circling’ me, if they have any nervous habits such as twitching sword tips, excessive bobbing and weaving their body, etc.

I only take note of these things but don’t attempt to build any true strategy with the information learned until after a couple of ‘instinctive’ engagements of our blades to get a feel for them if we come to a bind, if they even go for a bind. If they do bind then do they like to stay strong or go weak in the bind? If I have survived long enough to acquire that information then I try to formulate a strategy. Perhaps they are habitual fighters that react the same way to the same attack that then gives me an advantage to do some preparatory attacks for a feint.

Then again highly aggressive attacks combined with deliberate fluidity and quick blade speed overcomes many of the best strategies. 

[Joshua Santana]

Assuming I am dueling someone I have never fought before or had very few engagements with, then I typically take a few seconds to observe my opponent before initiating an attack if they do not initiate one first. I look for them to make some obvious mistakes such as frequently changing guards within my measure, especially if I haven’t changed my guard. I also take note if they are ‘circling’ me, if they have any nervous habits such as twitching sword tips, excessive bobbing and weaving their body, etc.

I only take note of these things but don’t attempt to build any true strategy with the information learned until after a couple of ‘instinctive’ engagements of our blades to get a feel for them if we come to a bind, if they even go for a bind. If they do bind then do they like to stay strong or go weak in the bind? If I have survived long enough to acquire that information then I try to formulate a strategy. Perhaps they are habitual fighters that react the same way to the same attack that then gives me an advantage to do some preparatory attacks for a feint.

Then again highly aggressive attacks combined with deliberate fluidity and quick blade speed overcomes many of the best strategies.

That is good observation on your part Sir Brian.  You have a good habit if what I would call "instinctive approaching" to the fight which is what I would use appropriately.
You make a good point here and this is what we need to keep in mind when we bout.

To me Rautt, my moment of Fuhlen and Indes comes when my mind sees me and the opponent, everything else is blackened.  That is where the strategic analysis and decision making happens. I could almost say that when I attack I make up my strategy as I go along, going with the flow of the fight instead of against it.  This requires Fuhlen and Indes, and a quick, responsive and relaxed mind. 

As someone did said, "if you are attacking then responding with counter attacks and defenses, at that point you are fencing or fighting."

[Thorsteinn]

Perhaps it is that, if I pause to think in an SCA or EMA fight without first creating distance in time and space, I will lose.

I have never seen an actively intellectual fighter rise beyond the middle. My step-dad is one such. Because he must plan and think of the fight he is as Bruce Lee said "If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow — you are not understanding yourself.".

To beat him I had to learn to unlearn. I had to just be me. He thought that I would follow a classical pattern for the kinds of attacks I, or he, was making, and so long as I fought his way, or the way of others, he would always beat me. When I learned to just 'Be Water' to just allow that which I wanted to do naturally to be done then did I find success. It didn't matter that he countered this move, or that move, or the next. So long as I was Water I could adapt. As he still relies upon the Classical Fencing stratagems & methods for his base he will always be limited by the classical form.

My step-dad is a good fighter but so long as he has to operate with a card of moves he will always be beaten in that moment when he reaches for a new card. Fencing expertise or no.

Thus... my search for a reliable way to the place of No Place.

BTW how fast & hard do y'all fight where you fight?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shaolin Abbott: I see your talents have gone beyond the mere physical level. Your skills are now at the point of spiritual insight. I have several questions. What is the highest technique you hope to achieve ?
Lee: To have no technique.
Shaolin Abbott: Very good. What are your thoughts when facing an opponent ?
Lee: There is no opponent.
Shaolin Abbott: And why is that ?
Lee: Because the word "I" does not exist.
Shaolin Abbott: So, continue...
Lee: A good fight should be like a small play, but played seriously. A good martial artist does not become tense, but ready. Not thinking, yet not dreaming. Ready for whatever may come. When the opponent expands, I contract. When he contracts, I expand. And when there is an opportunity, I do not hit. It hits all by itself.
Shaolin Abbott: Now, you must remember: the enemy has only images and illusions behind which he hides his true motives. Destroy the image and you will break the enemy.
------------------------------------------------------------
The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease.

[Sir Brian]

BTW how fast & hard do y'all fight where you fight?

Well that is a little subjective. I make a greater conscious effort to pull my hits more when I am using aluminum as the blade is thicker and has no give it actual has the potential to cause greater injury to your training partners. The steel seems to get going at a higher velocity and getting hit with the sweet spot of the steel on a lightly padded area can cause anywhere from moderate discomfort to broken bones. Then again some of the people I've trained with either don't have the appropriate level of protective equipment or spurn the use of it which is a little bothersome as I feel it gives them a slight advantage since they do not have to worry about granting me the same consideration since I'm pretty well protected, yet I only became that way because I was getting battered and bruised up pretty badly until I learned how to block a little better! 

[Joshua Santana]

I have never seen an actively intellectual fighter rise beyond the middle. My step-dad is one such. Because he must plan and think of the fight he is as Bruce Lee said "If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow — you are not understanding yourself.".

I think that what he was trying to say was that it is never a good thing to use the same strategy many times.  This calls for an open mind that is quick to adapt a new strategy when the situation calls for it.  But you make a good case.

Well that is a little subjective. I make a greater conscious effort to pull my hits more when I am using aluminum as the blade is thicker and has no give it actual has the potential to cause greater injury to your training partners. The steel seems to get going at a higher velocity and getting hit with the sweet spot of the steel on a lightly padded area can cause anywhere from moderate discomfort to broken bones. Then again some of the people I've trained with either don't have the appropriate level of protective equipment or spurn the use of it which is a little bothersome as I feel it gives them a slight advantage since they do not have to worry about granting me the same consideration since I'm pretty well protected, yet I only became that way because I was getting battered and bruised up pretty badly until I learned how to block a little better!

That is a good point!  Assumptions are the kind of decisions combatants tend to make, yet they can influence them to make a mistake in bouting.  To me, I am to never assume anything unless if my opponent is a fan of repetitive strategies.  However I take this quote into deep consideration:

"The best swordsman in the world has nothing to fear from the second best swordsman in the world, but everything to fear from the worst swordsman in the world."

This is not only a warning to those who find it difficult to defeat a very bad swordsman, it is also given to show how the lesser skilled swordsman will use weakness in his opponent's protective gear and forget his own weaknesses in his own because he wants what he wants to do and disregard his own situation.  The better swordsman will be aware of his weaknesses and will compensate them or use them to his advantage.  That is he can appear to be open in his guard or defensive posture until his opponent willingly takes the "bait" or assumes that you are stupid then respond with an attack he will not be anticipating.

Or in other words: "Fight or deceive your opponent by strategies so that you can give or make your opponent have the OH F*** moment"     

[Thorsteinn]

I think that, when trying to explain a lot of this to other WMA'ers is that, if you have not read the 'Tao of Jeet Kun Do' & 'Book of Five Rings', but have read Fiore, Lichtenauer, Meyer, and Thibault then the essential meaning behind my words, which is just the words themselves striped of all but their trueness, can be missed.

Also, if you have not fought at full speed and power then you may not be aware as much of the artifacts of perception inherent at a slower and lighter setting such as seeing the super small moves that are usually hidden, not having to fight or use your own inertia, being unable to truly flow, & blocking the shots that can be powered through a block.

This is not to condescend slow work for safety or training, only to say that a fight, a real fight, doesn't happen at 50%, and at less than 100% you cannot feel the true whole of your fight. Armour allows us to do this, and if a Padboy wants to go minimums well then, pain is a great teacher.

BTW: While it is not how I work I do like this- "Or in other words: "Fight or deceive your opponent by strategies so that you can give or make your opponent have the OH F*** moment"" because I can tell you I've had that moment. 


More good Quotes from Mr Bruce Lee:
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Knowledge in martial arts actually means self-knowledge. A martial artist has to take responsibility for himself and accept the consequences of his own doing. The understanding of JKD is through personal feeling from movement to movement in the mirror of the relationship and not through a process of isolation. To be is to be related. To isolate is death. To me, ultimately, martial arts means honestly expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do. It has always been very easy for me to put on a show and be cocky, and be flooded with a cocky feeling and feel pretty cool and all that. I can make all kinds of phoney things. Blinded by it. Or I can show some really fancy movement. But to experience oneself honestly, not lying to oneself, and to express myself honestly, now that is very hard to do.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

In JKD, one does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity.
Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. It is the halfway cultivation that leads to ornamentation. Jeet Kune-Do is basically a sophisticated fighting style stripped to its essentials.
Art is the expression of the self. The more complicated and restricted the method, the less the opportunity for expression of one's original sense of freedom. Though they play an important role in the early stage, the techniques should not be too mechanical, complex or restrictive. If we cling blindly to them, we shall eventually become bound by their limitations. Remember, you are expressing the techniques and not doing the techniques. If somebody attacks you, your response is not Technique No.1, Stance No. 2, Section 4, Paragraph 5. Instead you simply move in like sound and echo, without any deliberation. It is as though when I call you, you answer me, or when I throw you something, you catch it. It's as simple as that - no fuss, no mess. In other words, when someone grabs you, punch him. To me a lot of this fancy stuff is not functional.
A martial artist who drills exclusively to a set pattern of combat is losing his freedom. He is actually becoming a slave to a choice pattern and feels that the pattern is the real thing. It leads to stagnation because the way of combat is never based on personal choice and fancies, but constantly changes from moment to moment, and the disappointed combatant will soon find out that his 'choice routine' lacks pliability. There must be a 'being' instead of a 'doing' in training. One must be free. Instead of complexity of form, there should be simplicity of expression.
To me, the extraordinary aspect of martial arts lies in its simplicity. The easy way is also the right way, and martial arts is nothing at all special; the closer to the true way of martial arts, the less wastage of expression there is.
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject. Actually, he keeps chiselling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Thus, contrary to other styles, being wise in Jeet Kune-Do doesn't mean adding more; it means to minimize, in other words to hack away the unessential.
It is not daily increase but daily decrease; hack away the unessential.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.fightingmaster.com/masters/brucelee/quotes.htm

[Joshua Santana]

I think that, when trying to explain a lot of this to other WMA'ers is that, if you have not read the 'Tao of Jeet Kun Do' & 'Book of Five Rings', but have read Fiore, Lichtenauer, Meyer, and Thibault then the essential meaning behind my words, which is just the words themselves striped of all but their trueness, can be missed.

You're right on that Rautt and that can be problematic but I have read 'Book of the Five Rings' in my earlier years although memory on it is more rusty.  But when reading the words of Liechtenauer, Fiore, Marozzo, Meyer, Thibault, Fabris, Carranza, George Silver, Di Grassi and others, fighting is more like a science or an art that serves a single (or multiple) purpose and the training is more like theory, combat science and experience put together.  This is what most WMA'rs will say if put against a eastern martial artist. 

Also, if you have not fought at full speed and power then you may not be aware as much of the artifacts of perception inherent at a slower and lighter setting such as seeing the super small moves that are usually hidden, not having to fight or use your own inertia, being unable to truly flow, & blocking the shots that can be powered through a block.

This is not to condescend slow work for safety or training, only to say that a fight, a real fight, doesn't happen at 50%, and at less than 100% you cannot feel the true whole of your fight. Armour allows us to do this, and if a Padboy wants to go minimums well then, pain is a great teacher.

 

That I agree, I would say that strategies should be a flowing improvisation (if you will) of counter offenses and defenses.  Static offenses and vice versa will only make you readable and the fight would be over quickly.

BTW:  That the nature of that statement was to convey a real goal that you want vto accomplish in bouting or fighting and it's a good saying 

BTW: thank you for the quotes and this was a good, civil argument. 

[Sir William]

I tend to overthink it...but as I continue to learn, my hope is that it will become more instinctive and less thought-centric.