Arrows vs. Mail -- was Re: Chainmail on a peasant's budget

[Sir Ulrich]

Used to have something similar to this when I was younger, ever since a young age I wanted a maille hauberk though. When I used to make butted maille I wasnt very satisfied with it after I tested a patch of it by shooting arrows and stabbing it with wooden sword, which went clear through it. I KNEW something was wrong with butted maille. Also used to make cardboard plate and a cardboard great helm which later got smashed by a wooden sword...

[Leganoth]

Used to have something similar to this when I was younger, ever since a young age I wanted a maille hauberk though. When I used to make butted maille I wasnt very satisfied with it after I tested a patch of it by shooting arrows and stabbing it with wooden sword, which went clear through it. I KNEW something was wrong with butted maille. Also used to make cardboard plate and a cardboard great helm which later got smashed by a wooden sword...

LOL, nice story! Ive always wanted to shoot my chain with my crossbow....but i cant find medieval style bolts to work on a modern crossbow...the tips would just go through the chain itself since how theyre not made like >------> anymore. Theyre more like this now c----<  uhh thats supposed to be the head with the same size as the shaft lol....no not penises

[Sir Ulrich]

If it's butted it WILL go through no exceptions, only riveted maille can resist arrows. High power crossbows WILL go through even riveted maille as well as plate though. All historical maille except examples for parades or japanese examples were riveted.

[Sir Wolf]

slippery slope there. i have seen crossbow bolts bounce off of plate and arrows go into mail, all depends on how its made.

[Sir William]

A medieval English longbow had range and power...but the average man will not be able to bend such a bow.  Extant records indicate the larger ones had draw poundages of 150 or more- similar to pulling a fully grown man up an edge with just one hand and arm; that much energy was more than enough to send an arrow through mail and plate.  Mail was quite useful in protecting against cuts and slashes, but not so much so for thrusts and projectile or impact weapons.

[Sir Ulrich]

Well the longbow was also recurved to some degree during the 15th century to increase its power. And their skeletons were deformed to the point where the arm joints were bigger than average. Longbows could go through almost anything at close range except specially tempered armor if it can go through plate it can go through maille probably even easier. I DO know maille (even the round ring indian made stuff as seen in this video) is good against both cut and thrust as seen in this video:

Against bows maille is less effective especially bodkins, but against broadheads and barbed arrows it's quite effective. Thing is wounds from bodkins heal easier than broadhead and barbed arrows as it's less of a large wound and can be pulled out quite easier so maille was effective anyway, but a few layers of linen can mean the difference between life and death.

[Sir Edward]

A good thing to google for when looking up info about English longbows is the "Mary Rose", which is a ship that sank and took a whole bunch of archers with it.

Based on excavations, the longbows that were recovered averaged about 6'6" in length and 150 to 160 lbs draw weight, but ranged from 100 to over 180 lbs.

Bodkin arrow heads were extremely common for military use. There's conflicting anecdotal evidence that these may have sometimes pierced plate armor, but they definitely could pierce mail. It's doesn't take much to push something long and thin right between some links. On the other hand, linen gambesons/jacks/aketons can be surprisingly effective against arrows.

What's worth noting though is that arrows usually weren't immediately fatal, unless they hit something critical (heart, brain, major artery). Otherwise the wounds were often recoverable, assuming you weren't killed by something else while fighting injured, or struck someplace where it's unlikely to heal properly, at least not without infection. Fatalities frequently were much later, due to infection, and thus wouldn't necessarily remove someone from the fight, but rather limit their usefulness.

[Sir William]

I have read anecdotes of shafts smeared in 'nightsoil' - you could think of it as a medieval force multiplier as now not only did you have to worry about piercing wounds alone, but infection as well.

[Sir Wolf]

and remember in England during the war of the roses period (15th century) is is LAW for any man aged 6 to 60 to practice the bow after church. so yes everyman should be able to pull any bow.

[SirNathanQ]

Ahhh, the old Longbow vs Maille. debate. This will spill over like crazy. I'd suggest we start a new thread for this big one. 

[Sir Edward]

I'd suggest we start a new thread for this big one. 

I was thinking the same thing. I've split it and moved this portion of the discussion back to the main Armory board.

[James Barker]

Based on excavations, the longbows that were recovered averaged about 6'6" in length and 150 to 160 lbs draw weight, but ranged from 100 to over 180 lbs

Just to be clear that number is really guess work, the tested average of the extant bows was 108 pounds draw weight but people argue the bows are old and damaged so they likely were higher, between 120-160.

It is hard to say how powerful they were, we cannot get yew at the same density they had today, all the mini ice age trees have been harvested and their rings were denser do to the continued cold of that era.

[Sir Brian]

Based on excavations, the longbows that were recovered averaged about 6'6" in length and 150 to 160 lbs draw weight, but ranged from 100 to over 180 lbs

Just to be clear that number is really guess work, the tested average of the extant bows was 108 pounds draw weight but people argue the bows are old and damaged so they likely were higher, between 120-160.

It is hard to say how powerful they were, we cannot get yew at the same density they had today, all the mini ice age trees have been harvested and their rings were denser do to the continued cold of that era.

That is an excellent and uncommonly known but very valid point James!
~ However on the flip –side of that, modern steel is far more durable than the middle ages and brings the question of them cancelling each other out?

[Sir Edward]

Boy, the modern steel issue is another whole separate discussion. In summary, modern steel is much better, mainly due to homogenous carbon distribution. In period, folding was often necessary to achieve this.

But the other issue is silicate inclusions, which make the steel more brittle (and thus bad for blades). Modern steel has the silicates removed so as to be better steel. However, period steel would only rust at the surface and then stop, due to the silica. This is why period swords are still being dug up from rivers today, but a modern replica would turn to dust in no time under those conditions.

[Sir Ulrich]

I think this video would demonstrate some idea of how resistant maille is to arrows


As you can see most arrows bounce off the maille and when they DO pierce it isn't nearly as harmful as you'd think due to the gambeson. Not sure how bodkins would fair though.