Peening vs Threaded tangs

[Sir Edward]

An interesting article by Albion about why they chose to hot-peen their tangs.

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords-functional.htm

[Sir William]

I read that years ago and it makes perfect sense, not just from a historical stance (although I am sure they might've tried the threads had they thought of them- they are a modern invention, no?) but from a safety standpoint.

I'm not all that enthused about the sleeved/threaded pommels either (a la earlier Atrim, Tinker, H/T or VA/Atrim offerings) but they do have their uses (like cross, grip and/or pommel customizations/changeouts) and if the sleeved nut is recessed then it makes for a better aesthetic, imho.

Overall, I prefer a hot-peened assembly, as it was done in history.

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, most of the sword types they're replicating were peened historically. Though there are some cases of threaded pommels, I'm just not sure what period. I remember hearing about cases in judicial duels where the rules called for each opponent to throw a weapon at the beginning of the fight, so some folks would unscrew the pommel and throw that.

[Sir William]

Really?  I have never heard of that...why not throw an ax or dagger?  What happened to the weapon sans pommel?

[Sir Edward]

I'm sure Bill could elaborate, I think I heard it from him.

The idea was that you'd come into the fight with a couple of weapons, and would have to throw something. So by tossing the pommel, you could keep your dagger ready for when the fight gets past the swords and down to grappling. I'm guessing these cases had the sword specifically designed to easily lose the pommel and still be held together. But I don't know for sure.

[Sir William]

That's very interesting...I wonder at what's behind the 'throwing' aspect.  Did it replace the throwing down of the gauntlet?

[Sir Edward]

Throwing the gauntlet was used as form of making a challenge. The thrown weapon thing would take place at the start of the actual fight. I'm not sure where the rule started or what region it was in. It would be interesting to read more detail on these sorts of practices.

[Sir William]

Seems almost like the ringing of the bell, only the bell is in the hands of the combatants...there are contemporary processes that seem to strengthen the argument- like the disrobing of boxers just prior to a bout, or MMA fighters who take off their shirts just prior to a fight (if you'll notice, both sets of combatants don a robe or shirt immediately thereafter- a mental cue that the martial spirit should accede to the civil one if you will) - that has always been my understanding of it, ymmv.

[Das Bill]

It's shown in the Gladiatoria fechtbuch, and is a bit of an oddity. No one 100% knows the reasoning for it, but the most likely reason is that in certain Germanic judicial duels it was required by law that one of the combatants (presumably the challenger) must cast a weapon before the fight begins. (Most likely a tie back to Odin casting his spear.) The spear was the typical thrown weapon, but the Gladiatoria treatise shows unscrewing the pommel, presumably as a way of "playing to the rules" so that you didn't have to get rid of a full weapon.

[Das Bill]

Oh, and as Ed said, threaded tangs were used throughout history, though they were rare until later time periods.

[Joshua Santana]

It's shown in the Gladiatoria fechtbuch, and is a bit of an oddity. No one 100% knows the reasoning for it, but the most likely reason is that in certain Germanic judicial duels it was required by law that one of the combatants (presumably the challenger) must cast a weapon before the fight begins. (Most likely a tie back to Odin casting his spear.) The spear was the typical thrown weapon, but the Gladiatoria treatise shows unscrewing the pommel, presumably as a way of "playing to the rules" so that you didn't have to get rid of a full weapon.

The idea was that you'd come into the fight with a couple of weapons, and would have to throw something. So by tossing the pommel, you could keep your dagger ready for when the fight gets past the swords and down to grappling. I'm guessing these cases had the sword specifically designed to easily lose the pommel and still be held together.

Very interesting, it may seem that threaded or peened tanged swords vary from region and certain judicial dueling rules.  This also may show that it was more towards the preference of the owner.  Since Swords back in the day were a constantly manufactured item (the sword that had the most decorations or intricate designs were the most expensive).  This is only my take on the threaded/peened pommel aspects of swords, this preference based on the customer's designs could also be applied towards pommel designs and blade shape (tapering, fullers and width) and cross guard shapes.

[Sir William]

I have a question about swords- I had read somewhere that swords were crafted for a specific user; one would commission a blade with measurements that coincided with the measurements of arm, hand as well as fighting style.  Is this so?

I was thinking of having a custom blade commissioned and wondered about that; it brought the question to mind because there is a picture from the knighting ceremony where I'm just able to get my sword into the scabbard but it felt a bit too long for me.

[Sir Edward]

Well, we have to remember that there are lots of variations across regions as well as periods. It's possible they were speaking of eastern weapons. I'm not sure of what their traditions were.

But in most of medieval Europe, often the blade blanks were made in only a few places where there was good steel, and they'd be shipped all over. Final assembly would be done by a cutler. Much of the time, the customer could pick out which components they wanted, but they could also buy a clunker that was thrown together. Much like today, there were opportunities to go cheap, or spend more and get something custom.

[Sir William]

That makes sense...could've sworn it was a Western reference I'd read that in but I read so much...I don't always remember it correctly.

[Das Bill]

Well, as Ed said, it depends greatly on what time period (and even what decade), as well as what region. It also depends on what class of person.

Yes, people did get fully custom weapons for themselves, but they also bought them "off the rack", or where issued a standard weapon, and all of these things go on throughout most of the medieval, renaissance, and pre-modern eras of the Western world. The one thing that did not happen was the idea of one bladesmith making weapons himself. It almost always was done where one guild made the blades, one made the hilt fittings, etc.