Discussion: Justice

[Sir Edward]

Boy, I'm gradually running out of virtues to bring up.

Justice is perhaps a relatively obvious one, so it might be a short discussion. Clearly justice is important, and historically knights were one of the main forces for enforcing it (or abusing it!). Upholding the laws of the land, and being fair in all dealings are both important. However, what do you do when the law is unjust? Or when the legal course of action conflicts with what is morally best?

Personally I feel it's better to do what is right and just at all times. If the law serves this, than all the better. But ideally, rather than breaking the law whenever it seems best to do so, it's still preferable to work within the system and have the laws changed when they're flawed.

It's both a blessing and a curse to live in a country that takes justice and freedom so seriously. What we have is a strong system of courts and procedures to be fair to everyone, and yet it gets abused by many for their own personal gain, resulting in a highly litigious society where justice can often be bought or manipulated.

There's a reason that justice is often symbolized by Lady Justice, who bears scales to weigh the facts, a sword to enforce judgment, and a blindfold to remain objective. The latter I think is important. Objectivity is hard to come by when dealing with inherently flawed human beings, and yet like so many of our knightly virtues, the ideal must still be striven for, and is central and crucial to the concept of justice.

[Sir William]

Not everyone has the same idea regarding the concept on Justice...as an ideal, I think it would be safe to say we might espouse the same frame of mind w/regard to justice but you raise an interesting question- what does one do when the law cannot/does not mete out justice, as we see it? 

Perception being what it is, what one man sees as injustice could very well be attributed to any number of things, apathy on the part of the parties involved, misrepresentation of facts, you name it, it has happened at some point in the past.  Justice should be blind, but humans are not.  This is why court proceedings are a lot like daytime tv- loaded w/drama, the principles are usually turned out in their Sunday best with strategies focused on obfuscating the other side, we've all seen it.  You have to ask yourself, how on earth can Justice be done when there's so much that gets in the way of it?

I doubt there could ever be a perfect justice system, and not just because humans are rendering the judgments- but that there are way too many loopholes, fallacies that allow the discerning mind to make use of; especially when someone can successfully sue a corporation because they burned themselves on a cup of coffee they purchased from a franchisee...that one burns me in particular, no pun intended. 

I think that as far as getting a fair shake goes, you're much better off in an American courtroom than in any other...Canada being the possible exception.

Of course...if they allowed certain litigated disputes to be resolved by personal combat, I'd bet we'd see those drop to near-nothing...no one wants to actually get harmed in the process of hoodwinking the justice system, right?

[Sir Edward]

especially when someone can successfully sue a corporation because they burned themselves on a cup of coffee they purchased from a franchisee...that one burns me in particular, no pun intended.  

I used to feel the same way you do about that case, but now I think it's not a good example of manipulation of the system after having read more about it. Apparently she didn't want to sue originally, but rather prior to the accident, she had complained to the McDonalds on several occasions about the coffee being too hot. It was considerably over the legal safe limit, and they refused to change anyway. When it burned her, it caused second and third degree burns over a large area of her legs and crotch because of the unsafe temperatures that the restaurant knew was over the legal limit. At first she just asked for compensation for the medical bills, and they blew her off. She didn't sue until it was clear she wasn't getting any traction with them.

Of course...if they allowed certain litigated disputes to be resolved by personal combat, I'd bet we'd see those drop to near-nothing...no one wants to actually get harmed in the process of hoodwinking the justice system, right?

I think we should just move to a loser-pay system. A lot of frivolous lawsuits would go away since they would have to pay the other side's legal fees if they lose, and it would be too risky if they don't have a strong case.

[Sir William]

Well ok, if you want to be totally adult and intelligent about things, we could go to a loser pay system; I thought that's where were at anyway.  I didn't know the particulars about that case so thank you for informing me...it's what I get for going off half-cocked w/out knowing all there was to know.

I must say I'm changing my stance on that particular case....seems to me she pursued every recourse available before going for litigation.  As to the amount, I guess in order for a giant like McD's to sit up and take notice it had to be heavy enough to get their attention.  I'm not mad at her, at all.

The local councilman who tried to sue a mom and pop dry cleaner's for  $65M USD because they misplaced his tuxedo pants might be a better example.

http://victimsoflaw.net/JudgeRoyPearson.htm

Utterly ridiculous- compounded by the fact that this man used to be a sitting judge right here IN D.C..

[Sir Patrick]

I tend to think of this virtue in more personal, rather than legal terms.  We have a justice system in place, so it's not for me to take the law into my own hands a la Batman.  In modern times, I feel it's more about being just to those around you.  If you make a mistake and hurt someone, or cause damage to their property, own up to it, and make amends.  If you break an item in a store, instead of hiding it and walking off, pay for it.  If you rear end a parked car while backing out of a spot, go into the store and try to page the owner of the vehicle.  If you can't find them, leave a note.  It's not as glamorous as smiting evil-doers, but for the injured party it's justice nonetheless.

[Sir William]

Excellently put, Red Knight...when I read the first post I went straight for the law.  As a knight, your stance is exactly the one we should all adopt- I guess it isn't a matter of course, even if it should be...kudos for pointing that out.

[Sir Edward]

Yes, excellent points, and thank you for bringing it back on track, as I started to get a little into legality in my first post as well. But as a knightly virtue, it's how it informs our own behavior towards others that matters most.

[Sir Brian]

I tend to think of this virtue in more personal, rather than legal terms.  We have a justice system in place, so it's not for me to take the law into my own hands a la Batman.  In modern times, I feel it's more about being just to those around you.  If you make a mistake and hurt someone, or cause damage to their property, own up to it, and make amends.  If you break an item in a store, instead of hiding it and walking off, pay for it.  If you rear end a parked car while backing out of a spot, go into the store and try to page the owner of the vehicle.  If you can't find them, leave a note.  It's not as glamorous as smiting evil-doers, but for the injured party it's justice nonetheless.

Spot on assessment Red Knight! I concur wholeheartedly, however if I may I would like to expound upon the flip side of that concept you have so excellently noted in that it is also meting out justice by way of being intolerant, shunning or actively reproaching those we encounter that have shown themselves through their deeds to be devious, ignoble and discourteous. I daresay it could even be an expected duty of all people who possess a noble spirit.

[Sir Patrick]

Firmly in agreement, Sir Brian.  I believe everyone deserves a chance to make amends, but sometimes there are just some really bad eggs out there.  The just man has no truck with those cannibals who prey on their fellow man.

[Sir Wolf]

as my 3 year old son says " i like Batman, he's dark and creepy"

don't think there is much i could add here.

...and justice for all

[Sir William]

I think your son's on to something, Wolf.