Discussion: Honor

[Lord Dane]

People who have no concept of honor (by not serving others) are not ones to judge those who do serve with it. Granted, we all have our own definitions of how we perceive the notion, but it is in the character of the person, the meaning of their words, and the actions they take that make them honorable. Those with honor, get my respect and gratitude. Those without it are not worthy to mention and deserve no attention.

[Sir Martyn]

Excellent discussion here. 

It seems to me that the ensuing contrast/comparison on the concept of honor and how that has changed (or not, depending on your view) given the shifting cultural paradigms and principally the once unbreakable linkage between religion and chivalric code -- and what the implications are for those of us now trying to define its "reinterpretation" if you will, is fascinating.

For someone interested in the topic and also working in a professional federal service called to serve the policies of all administrations with equal loyalty and dedication -- and what are the options should you find yourself on a personal level irreconciled to them -- (and raised Catholic in the south!) these all remain very real questions.  It's been great to review your discussion.

For me, honor can be an empty, self-obsessed concept if not also linked to dedication, determination and integrity - the grit needed to uphold code because it is right even at the risk of self (offering that drink to your fallen enemy who could strike at you).  Yet the other side of the coin must also be the willingness to stand up others - even our superiors - who would claim to speak for that same code if they be in the wrong. 

Good stuff.

[B. Patricius]

For me, honor can be an empty, self-obsessed concept if not also linked to dedication, determination and integrity - the grit needed to uphold code because it is right even at the risk of self (offering that drink to your fallen enemy who could strike at you).  Yet the other side of the coin must also be the willingness to stand up others - even our superiors - who would claim to speak for that same code if they be in the wrong. 

Good stuff.

QFT

I often think that most people today consider the more vain version of honor rather than the selfless serving version when they argue against it. 

[Grand Master Garland]

Garyeth, You identify a clear problem as to how one retains personal honor (as well as employment) when faced with an unethical or immoral directive.   In the healthcare profession we never considered that such problems would arise but now we see them nearly every day because of the “Affordable Care Act”.  Our first maxim had been Primum non nocere, "first, do no harm", but now we see directives transforming that maxim to “do nothing”.  The shift from traditional Christian spiritual direction regarding morals and ethics is telling.   
 
At one time I clearly experienced what you describe as an “empty, self-obsessed” sense of honor.  I didn't like it and eventually chose the traditional Catholic Deposit of Faith to fill that void.  It provided the answers to the “very real questions” you mention.  For our Knights that “linkage between religion and chivalric code” has never changed and for us the Code of Christian Chivalry covers all aspects of honor:
“Thou shalt believe the teaching of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and obey all her admonitions.  Thou shalt defend the Church.  Thou shalt show regard for the weak and defend them.  Thou shalt love the country of thy birth.  Thou shalt never retreat before the Infidel.  Thou shalt never tell a lie and shalt stay true to thy word.  Thou shalt be generous and charitable.  Thou shalt champion Goodness and Justice against evil and iniquity.”

This code has served Western Civilization well for a thousand years, regardless of what some say.  And though the fashion today is for individual interpretation and “choice” in matters of ethics, morals, and even concepts like honor and chivalry, I fear for our descendants who may, as a consequence of that secular fashion, live in a much less charitable world.

[Sir Edward]

I thought I might add a question to this thread, to see if anyone would like to discuss it further. I encourage our newer forum members to read from the start, and contribute if they would like to do so.

When is honor served best, in strictly adhering to your principles, or bending them (perhaps even breaking them entirely) for the greater good? Is there ever a time when you need to put your own honor aside in order for lives to be saved, or justice to prevail?

These are meant to be tough questions. No right or wrong answers, just a topic of thought and discussion.

[Thorsteinn]

Yes. In the show "Leverage" you see the good & true Boston Detective Lt. Bonano put aside his strict code of honor a bit when the Leverage crew so some shady things, even to the point of knowing that all of them are felons that now do what they do for the greater good.

Later when he is hurt they go to extreme lengths to help him when he is betrayed by LEO's and almost killed. He asks no questions knowing that he'd have to arrest them if he knew the answers.

But  doesn't this idea of bending the rules go to the heart of  that old geek question: Whom do you trust more? Batman or Superman?

[Timothy]

Wow what a discussion.

Sir Patrick,

Having read your post there may have been a reason you ended up going first.   I can not disagree with anything that you have said but there one portion that I would ask you for examples.

 "A person can be honest, and humble, but not necessarily be honorable.'Can you please give us an example or two of an act being "honest and humble" but not honorable.

On another point I would say to some extent a modern example of Cincinnatus would be the surrendering, voluntarily,  of the near absolute power held by an American president. Every four years we elect one individual with the power most dictators only dream about. At the end of the four year period (or sometimes eight) these individual surrender that near absolute power to their successor. One second past noon on the fourth/eighth year a person who held the power to destroy cites and kill millions is reduced to the status of a citizen. Never again will they hold that power in their hands. Given the history of men and the acquisition of power it is mind boggling that none , so far, have attempted to keep it past its expiration date.

[Sir Douglas]

Man, why can't you guys ask easier questions? This hurts my delicate little pea brain.

In all seriousness, though. With regards to this:

Jocelyn: If you would prove your love, you should do your worst.... Instead of winning to honor me with your fine reputation, I want you to lose.... To show your obedience to your lover and not to yourself.

Does doing this lessen his honor (by not doing what he wants)? Would winning increase his honor by disrespecting his lover's request?

It brings up and interesting conundrum in my mind. On the one hand, purposely losing to prove his love would lessen — or at the very least, do nothing to improve — his overall "honor" in the eyes of the masses who probably care nothing about his love life. The public is there to see someone become a great tournament champion, not to see someone get the girl. But I think his personal honor would improve because of his selflessness.
Whereas on the other hand, winning the tournament would grant him "honor" with his countrymen, and perhaps his fellow knights and his king, but at the expense of his own personal honor. So essentially I suppose it would boil down to whether he wanted to appear honorable before a large group of people, or to sacrifice that in the pursuit of a — I feel — more sincere form of honor, but one that few people would know about.

It seems to me that someone who wanted to do honorable things wouldn't be doing it to impress a lot of people. They'd be doing it because it was the right thing to do. Just like a truly charitable person wouldn't give to the poor just so they could brag to people that they're charitable.

[Sir Patrick]

Wow what a discussion.

Sir Patrick,

Having read your post there may have been a reason you ended up going first.   I can not disagree with anything that you have said but there one portion that I would ask you for examples.

 "A person can be honest, and humble, but not necessarily be honorable.'Can you please give us an example or two of an act being "honest and humble" but not honorable.

Sure. As mentioned in my original post, honor is active. In order to set it in motion, one must have the resolve to do so. It is one thing to be honest and humble and see what the honorable course is, but all of that means little if you do not ACT on it.

EDITED to try and seperate my response from the original quote box.

[Sir Nate]

I may be young but I do think Honor could be viewed from many angles.
If an evil family is known for being evil, wouldn't they shame one of their kin for being good?
But that would be to say if the rest of the world considers that family to have honor or dishonor. In world with mostly evil family's I do believe that would apply. But we don't live in a world a evil family's.
then again one might see revenge as a way to uphold ones honor. I don't believe that, one would have to avenge someone, as to when it then would be for the greater good, and your dead would be considered honorable.
In my personal opinion honor, cannot be described by talk or tales even. If you tell someone a story of the most honorable knight in the world, the word honor could still be quite alien to them, as they might view it as doing alot of good deeds.
My argument is that one can learn honor only through actions and experience.
You'd have to know what dishonor is before honor. Read someone the tale of the most dishonorable knights, they may not quite know what honor is yet, but they definetly know what not do. So after some time they can get the right of Idea of what kind of actions to carry out. The less dishonorable things you do the more honor you have, and just upholding that could gain more honor to you and your family.
Honor is upholding your codes, laws, and morals, Yet it is also performing good deeds.
I can't Describe honor, because I only have one word to describe it. Yet I can feel what honor is and do understand it, and I just know I am honorable, even though I have done some dishonorable things in the past.
I disagree with no one, Im easy.

[Thorsteinn]

What are y'all's thoughts on this?

Honor, Dueling, and Drengskapr in the Viking Age.

[Sir Martyn]

Nice find, Thorsteinn.  Strikes me how how much the Vikings put with will to surrender self to luck and fate in the mix with "honorable" behavior.

Glad to see see this excellent topic still has legs.

[Lord Chagatai]

Honor...it's what makes us who we are...without it the world be worse than it is and we would fall to whatever evil or dishonorable person comes around...living and studying the Asian culture it is one of the things I hold dearly and close to my heart and I base my individual code of chivalry around it.

[scott2978]

So much to say on this subject. So much has been said already. Some of it truly astonishing.

I find in my own life, the description of what is honorable changes. I prefer to believe that what is honorable is as variable as humans and the circumstances they find themselves in. And that's not a bad thing. Because there can be no honor in humanity so long as the rules of honor are absolute. If you can think of any immutable law of honor, I can think of at least one exception to it. There is no single precise, succinct definition of honor that is true for all humans in all circumstances.  Cultures, religions and governments can have their own definitions, as individuals can, but only a man himself can say what is honorable in the situations he finds himself in. Perhaps even the act of contemplating what is the honorable choice is enough to make one so in today's world. Also, those with like definitions will naturally cleave together but differences between people's sense of honor should, in general, be embraced not persecuted. (in general)

[Thorsteinn]

“Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise; seek what they sought.”
― Matsuo Bashō, poet.