Custom Chainmail

[Ian]

Wow thank you all for the information. I didn't even realize there were that many types of mail out there. What style rings were most common to 14th c?

I think that is a great idea to start from the inside and work out. I am beginning to come up with a plan, it is one that will take a very long time to come to fruition but that gives me time to research . Everyone here has such awesome advice! Thank you guys so much for sharing, I might actually end up looking like a real fighter at some point even if I never draw sword!

As a general rule (which of course there are always exceptions), the 14th century knight favored fully riveted flat ring maille, mid-thigh length.  Sleeve fit and length depend greatly on geographic location and cultural stylistic differences.

If it makes you feel better to achieve a living history quality armor, it's taken me about 4 years and I'm still not done.

[Eva de Carduus Weald]

O.o, 4 years!?! Good gracious!

Ah I see, well it does make sense to have flat but it isn't what my modern, highly fantasy induced brain first imagines. Not surprising that. Righto this future kit is coming together already!

By the way, I appreciate the work that you do, I don't think people who do all of this research and share really hear that enough. Spending that long on any subject, regardless of how much you love it, and sharing it with others is a gift. So thank you.

[Ian]

By the way, I appreciate the work that you do, I don't think people who do all of this research and share really hear that enough. Spending that long on any subject, regardless of how much you love it, and sharing it with others is a gift. So thank you.

You're very welcome!  Sharing what I've learned is what I enjoy most about this hobby, and why I love doing living history demos so much.  I appreciate the support.  Sometimes it can definitely feel like all the hard work, time and effort falls flat and was for nothing when someone just glosses over what you've put your passion in to.  It's always nice and refreshing to find someone with genuine interest!

[Eva de Carduus Weald]

I can tell you that while someone might not see it for what it is initially, those who have a real interest will learn over time the work that goes into what you do, even if they themselves don't do it. That has something to do with maturity too I think.

We enthusiasts just beginning our road to understanding the armor of a certain period/area, we really enjoy having something solid to start from and having someone knowledgeable to ask questions of. But I completely understand how you feel about putting so much time into something and having it seem like it is blown off.

[Sir Douglas]

I can tell you one thing, Eva: Ian is pretty much the go-to guy around here for anything involving Living History: kits, events, whatever. I've already bugged the heck out of him regarding an upcoming LH event.

[Ian]

I can tell you one thing, Eva: Ian is pretty much the go-to guy around here for anything involving Living History: kits, events, whatever. I've already bugged the heck out of him regarding an upcoming LH event.

It may appear that way, but that's only because Sir Wolf is too quiet!  He is vastly more experienced than I when it comes to LH.  I believe Paulus von Zurich shares many of Sir Wolf's experience as well.    But thank you Doug!

[Sir Nate]

I can tell you one thing, Eva: Ian is pretty much the go-to guy around here for anything involving Living History: kits, events, whatever. I've already bugged the heck out of him regarding an upcoming LH event.

It may appear that way, but that's only because Sir Wolf is too quiet!  He is vastly more experienced than I when it comes to LH.  I believe Paulus von Zurich shares many of Sir Wolf's experience as well.    But thank you Doug!

I've gone to help from both you and wolf(though about roman armor for a school project) But I agree.
And thank you for correcting me.

I can tell you that while someone might not see it for what it is initially, those who have a real interest will learn over time the work that goes into what you do, even if they themselves don't do it. That has something to do with maturity too I think.

We enthusiasts just beginning our road to understanding the armor of a certain period/area, we really enjoy having something solid to start from and having someone knowledgeable to ask questions of. But I completely understand how you feel about putting so much time into something and having it seem like it is blown off.

I know a few people that want to get involved with this stuff but give up when they see how much time they would have to put into it.

[Sir William]

I think it is like anything else you have a passion about- you've got to be willing to put in the time, make the sacrifices and consider the longterm goal.

[Sir Edward]

By the way, I appreciate the work that you do, I don't think people who do all of this research and share really hear that enough. Spending that long on any subject, regardless of how much you love it, and sharing it with others is a gift. So thank you.

You're very welcome!  Sharing what I've learned is what I enjoy most about this hobby, and why I love doing living history demos so much.  I appreciate the support.  Sometimes it can definitely feel like all the hard work, time and effort falls flat and was for nothing when someone just glosses over what you've put your passion in to.  It's always nice and refreshing to find someone with genuine interest!

I think everyone here appreciates it. I know I do!

[Don Jorge]

By the way, I appreciate the work that you do, I don't think people who do all of this research and share really hear that enough. Spending that long on any subject, regardless of how much you love it, and sharing it with others is a gift. So thank you.

You're very welcome!  Sharing what I've learned is what I enjoy most about this hobby, and why I love doing living history demos so much.  I appreciate the support.  Sometimes it can definitely feel like all the hard work, time and effort falls flat and was for nothing when someone just glosses over what you've put your passion in to.  It's always nice and refreshing to find someone with genuine interest!

I think everyone here appreciates it. I know I do!

+1

[scott2978]

Ian is what got me interested in Living History some years back. His dedication to getting the details right is still as inspiring to me today as it was back then. And from running into him occasionally on the interwebs to eventually getting to know him a little better through Modern Chivalry, it turns out Ian is a cool guy and a gentleman to boot.

But I digress lest this turn into yet another Ian fan club thread... 

I wish I had noticed this thread earlier. Mail is one of the most fascinating parts of medieval armor to me and I love demonstrating it to people. A case in point below about riveted vs solid (or butted) links:

An individual mail link rivet is so tiny you can barely feel it's weight in your hand. You could fit half a dozen of them in the volume of a standard #2 pencil eraser. But the way I always illustrate to people how much difference in weight those rivets make is by asking them to hold their hand out all the way extended, and gently setting a bag of 9mm rings on their palm. I keep talking the whole time, telling them the structural and economic differences between riveted vs solid rings, and after about 60 seconds their arm starts to get tired. That's when I add a bag of rivets to their palm, before asking - "See how much all those rivets weigh now?"

So, I'm going to have to check out this store now that two people I respect have recommended it. Finding properly tailored mail is really rare, even in this day and age of increasing enlightenment.

Scott

[Lord Dane]

Don't feel so bad about that trend, Scott. I have mutual feelings & respect for Ian in his pursuits of historical accuracy & how it reflects upon the Order. He lives the medieval life!!

[Ian]

Thank you both.  Just a word of caution though.  Even though this store's offerings are a vast improvement over off-the-rack offerings, it's still not properly tailored maille.   For example there's no tailoring at the elbow to form cups or expansions in the armpits.  The sleeve tapers, but it's still a tapering tube, not a properly formed and tailored sleeve.  A real tailored maille sleeve shares a lot of the same tailoring features as the sleeve construction on that pourpoint you just made.  It uses a lot of cleverly placed rings to build in a small cup and pre-bend in the elbow like the CdB sleeve.

To get that level of proper tailoring requires either a lot of money and actually finding someone willing to do it, or a lot of work on your own.  My friend Tom Biliter just finished up a pair of properly tailored sleeves.  They offer more flexibility at the elbow than any tube, tapered or not, can possibly allow.  The tailoring on his were copied from an authentic sleeve in Wade Allen's collection that was marked up by Mac to show all the tailoring rings.  Even though Tom's is a reproduction of just the detached sleeves, similar tailoring would go in to the sleeves on a haubergeon.  A haubergeon would also include contraction and expansion in the body as well to correspond to the chest, waist, and hips.

So, for the prices we're used to paying for maille, Custom Chainmail is an awesome alternative to the off-the-rack stuff everyone uses, but it's still a couple tiers below the craftsmanship of properly tailored maille

I'm not trying to be ungrateful for the compliments, I just don't want people to think that the sleeve construction I'm wearing is perfectly accurate   That's how re-enactorisms are born, haha.


To get an idea of what goes in to the proper tailoring of a sleeve here you can see the deep v cut on the left side of the image.  That's the upper arm's elbow seam, just like on the CdB.  That's how you get that "tailored in" bend.  All the mess at the right of the image is how the armpit should be to allow freedom of movement:




And in this image you can see the final sleeve.  The sleeve on top is Wade's authentic sleeve.  The white twisty-ties are where Mac marked out the rings used to tailor it.  The bottom sleeve is Tom's reproduction.  The blacker rings are the rings he used to tailor it and correspond to the twisty-tied rings on Wade's original.  Note the tailored-in bend in the elbow and gussets in the armpit to allow real freedom of movement.

[scott2978]

Although paying so much would only make sense if the mail itself was close to historical, it's a testament to the tediousness and low payoff of mail tailoring that so few people are willing to do it.

Edit: I may have found someone who not only does mail tailoring correctly but does it for a fair price. I've ordered some mail tailored from him and will report back with a new review once I receive it.

[Sir Nate]

My Hauberk does not do that.