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Author Topic: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?  (Read 40658 times)

Ian

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #45 on: 2014-05-15, 22:06:29 »
Yes, Italians did were known to where maille on the outside of their arm harness and skip spaulders.  It varied by region, that's why geographical location matters so much.

I wear full plate arms, but still have to wear maille under them.  You can't escape maille in the 14th century.
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Sir Martyn

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #46 on: 2014-05-29, 13:38:28 »
Thanks for the maille feedback. 

As I said, the proposed focus is Bohemia/Moravia in mid-14th century or so (post-Premysl dynasty and beofre Hussites).  I recently got a couple of good sources - including one, "Medieval Armor and Weapons" by Drobna, Wagner and Durdik, to help my research.  It has a lot of good reproduction drawings and more importantly, citation of sources.  If I must do maille, at least hoping the haubergeon will work ;)

OK, I've now sufficiently recovered from the last lesson to field another question :)

Given the gap between my current "paladin" helm and floating gorget, it was felt I would be safer at the VARF harnesfechten demo fighting in Sir Brian's bascinet (thanks for the loan and sorry for any new dents, Sir Brian!).

For my kit -- which I'm hoping will be useable across interest groups -- would it make more sense to get a stand alone avential, or would it be better to have one that attaches to the bascinet which in turn would fit under a great helm? 

I'm leaning towards the stand-alone so it would be removeable/wearable for different uses, but understand the attached is probably safer and I'm not certain which would be truer to the period.  Keep in mind that the bascinet I'm planning on would have its own removable pivoting/pinned visor.  Appreciate the feedback!
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Ian

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #47 on: 2014-05-29, 16:14:24 »
You'll be hard pressed to find any bascinet in the 14th century of any style that did not have an aventail attached to it.  That being said, you could certainly wear a maille pisan in addition to the aventail (see Squire Jason's thread).

It's a stand alone maille collar (which I think is what you're getting at).  An aventail is by definition attached to a helmet.  A 'standard' is a 15th century maille collar.  A 'pisan' is the same thing, just in the 14th century (just a terminology difference).
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Sir Brian

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #48 on: 2014-05-29, 21:08:38 »
Well if you are concerned with the safety factor for harnischfechten, then you could always wear a brigandine style gorget under the aventail. There are some that hypostasize the possibility that they were worn beneath an aventail which cannot be neither proven nor disproven from period art or effigies but is prudently plausible given how easily and deeply an acutely sharp blade can penetrate maille alone.
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Ian

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #49 on: 2014-05-29, 21:20:11 »
There exist pisans in inventories all over the 14th century but no evidence specifically for rigid neck defense.  This is why, although no artwork exists to confirm or deny, it is thought to be unlikely that rigid gorgets existed prior to Great Bascinets.  Inventories are very detailed and heavily relied upon sources for the existence of certain pieces of equipment.  A double layer of maille, each with its own layer of padding, as would exist with a pisan and aventail combination would provide pretty good protection, even from a thrust.  You have to consider that most extant aventails are small rings, much smaller than the modern standard 9mm maille.  So very small riveted rings, layer of padding, another layer of riveted rings, another layer of padding... that's good protection.

There's also a ton of artwork, specifically effigies that depict knights with no helmet on.  Most French effigies are sans helmet (unlike English which almost always show the bascinet on the knight's head).  The French effigies that do depict helmet-less knights either show no additional neck protection, or a maille pisan.  So while there's is no smoking gun to say a rigid gorget didn't exist somewhere in the annals of the 14th century... it's extremely unlikely.

There's certainly nothing wrong with wearing rigid neck defense while doing combat sports for safety purposes.  But it's unfair and a little bit disingenuous to try and call it 'historical' when nothing points to its existence.  I would certainly consider wearing a rigid gorget for combat.  I would just note that it is a safety compromise, and not try to claim its historicity for my chosen period.  Remember, it's OK to do something ahistorical for safety purposes or for some other practical limitations, but don't try to 'force' something to be historical when there's no evidence that it was.  That only serves to make the person wearing it feel better by saying it's historical, but it's not doing anyone any favors.  So, there are two issues here.  One is historicity, the other is safety.  Don't try to force one in to the other if they don't already do that naturally, and always make note of that in a Living History demo if that particular item comes up in discussion.  That being said, you could definitely get away with a steel gorget under an aventail.  Especially something low profile like this (which is the one I would get if I were in the market):

(even though Erik is not doing custom work at the moment, I know he tries to keep these in stock)

http://www.wintertreecrafts.com/items/gorget.html 

« Last Edit: 2014-05-29, 21:29:57 by Ian »
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SirNathanQ

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #50 on: 2014-05-29, 23:13:17 »
Yeah, I wear a gorget under my avenaille. Concealed is concealed, if someone asks about it, I tell them it's safety gear. But if my neck is that exposed in a harnisfechten match anyway, something worse than my historicity is gong wrong.
If you really want to cheat, go German like me. Optional sabatos, jupons that cover the arms and the breastplate, padded aventailles, you can go nuts.
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Sir James A

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #51 on: 2014-05-30, 14:12:09 »
You have to consider that most extant aventails are small rings, much smaller than the modern standard 9mm maille.  So very small riveted rings, layer of padding, another layer of riveted rings, another layer of padding... that's good protection.

This is a very important point, and something I specifically don't mention with our demos, as I don't want them to get too confusing. There are even extant mail shirts which have larger diameter rings on the body, and smaller diameter rings for the neck, but all built as a single shirt. The collar will literally stand up on it's own on some of them, because of the small size of the rings and density of the weave.

I might bring my 6mm mail standard this weekend just to show the size difference to the 9mm we are used to. I don't want to thrust at it or hack it up, but just to show difference up close in how much smaller it is. And when we see that... I've handled period mail that was 3.8 and 5.3mm! I believe it was 16th century, but the tech certainly existed in the 12th and 13th century for them to make the same.
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Sir Martyn

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #52 on: 2014-06-04, 15:15:01 »
Agreed.  This discussion is now a bit ironic considering the need for better neck protection was proven clearly this past weekend :)  My harness helm may look good, but the gap is just too wide for safe fighting.

I'll probably come down with a close-fitting bascinet with a good avential and optional visor (something along the lines of what Jorge found) and get some good neck protection to boot.

Meantime, in looking for possible great helms, I noticed Jeff Wasson has a mild steel, blackened great helm made of 14 ga mild steel available (http://wassonartistry.com/show.php?id=forsale).

I was thinking about picking it up in additon to the 14th century knees (1050 Spring steel) and shoulder cops (same) for my new kit.  As I would want to use the helm for combat as well, re: durability, he said "The mild steel helm will get dented up over time depending on how often it is used." 

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Ian

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #53 on: 2014-06-04, 15:19:51 »
What would the shoulder cops and knee cops be used for?  Are you getting rid of the idea of plate or splint arms and legs?  Cops like that are typically used over maille.  They're not intended to be articulated to the rest of an arm or leg harness.  They could be 'floated' to a cuisse by pointing, but articulation is much better if you're going to wind up with cuisses anyway.

Once I made the jump to spring steel, I would never go back to mild steel.  But if still has that great helm available that's certainly a good price for it if you don't mind dealing with dents over time.
« Last Edit: 2014-06-04, 15:23:13 by Ian »
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Sir James A

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #54 on: 2014-06-04, 17:07:36 »
If you saw the dents in my helm, I bought it earlier this year, and it's 14 gauge mild. Handling dent removal on blackened armor is a very involved process, including re-coating of the blackening afterwards.

Second Sir Ian's question on floating cops.
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Sir Martyn

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #55 on: 2014-06-04, 17:43:39 »
My mistake on the knee cops as indeed I do still want to go with splinted or steel arms & legs, though I was thinking you could point the shoulder cops like roundels to the COP.

I don't have that big an issue with dents (I think - or at least when wearing Sir Brian's helm), so ir relatively durable should be OK I hope.
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Sir Martyn

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #56 on: 2015-05-01, 02:18:15 »
So, faire season has compelled me to dust off my quest for a good, authentic all around harness. 

I was showing/discussing the Wasson great helm with Brian and Ed this past weekend and it looks like it's not big enough to really accommodate the bascinet/cervelliere underneath and with no way to secure it (no chin strap) would not be safe/suitable for fighting - so will carry the raven crest only I suppose :(
 
I came across these fellows at Age of Craft (noted Jorge had been checking them out at one time as well) and with WintertreeCrafts still shut down, looking like my best bet (http://ageofcraft.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_69&product_id=136) for splint arms and legs, along with the Chalkis type 1 CoP. 

They propose to use wool (green and black) on the exterior surfaces (heavy canvas interior), which they say is historic, will wear better and show less fight marks than if using leather - thoughts on that?
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Ian

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #57 on: 2015-05-01, 02:46:26 »
They propose to use wool (green and black) on the exterior surfaces (heavy canvas interior), which they say is historic, will wear better and show less fight marks than if using leather - thoughts on that?

You're talking about just the CoP right?  It's historical.  The original Chalcis Type 2 was constructed with the plates attached to a double layer of canvas, not leather.  I'm not sure if any of the attachment medium survived from the Type 1.  Many other extant CoPs use textile instead of leather as a medium for the plate attachment. 

From the Met:


And a backplate from a CoP:



You can plainly see the weave of the textile.
« Last Edit: 2015-05-01, 02:51:36 by Ian »
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Sir James A

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #58 on: 2015-05-02, 00:42:54 »
Mad Matt does splinted gear and coat of plates. Forge of Svan does as well. You could look into them for additional options / comparisons.
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Sir Martyn

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Re: My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?
« Reply #59 on: 2015-05-05, 01:37:35 »
Thx James.  I did look at Matt's and Svan.  I'll probably get some shoulders  from Svan but with their brigandine pieces it's hard to see if they have overlapping plates, etc.  And I just really like the AoC look even if pricier
« Last Edit: 2015-05-05, 01:38:21 by Martyn »
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