Where to begin? New Kit in the working..

[Sir Jason Simonds]

As many of you may know I am in the process of redesigning my whole Knightly Persona. This is to include new Heraldry, of which I have completed the new design.

I have started already with a new tabard, which has made its debut the final day of MDRF.

Now to start building my new kit. I have decided to go with somewhere in the 13th Century using a Great helmet, Maile of the flat riveted variety, pauldrons, bracers and greaves.

Now to find the parts and put them together...

[Sir William]

I caught that...nicely done, Jason.  If you're looking for quality armor at a really good price, I'd look no further than Allan of Mercenary's Tailor.  He has a new website, but I don't know what it is offhand.  I bet one of the other knights knows it, though.  It was great seeing you, albeit briefly- which was my bad.

[Sir Brian]

Your new surcoat looked great! 

It being of the longer variety should fit in nicely with your target armor period. A couple of aspects to consider is early or late 13th (i.e. 1200 – 1300), the later part of the century really showing the acceleration of the transitional armor from maille to plate. Yet if you opt for a full hauberk you could add pieces onto it. Something I do not think I’ve seen much of is genuine Cuir Boulli (boiled leather) which would have been a likely predecessor to steel cops and perhaps even greaves, although that period was predominantly maille chausses. 

[Sir Edward]

One thing I want to note-- plate armor is decidedly a 14th century sort of thing. With a great helm and longer surcoat, you're looking at the earlier half of the 14th to mix those elements with plate or transitional armor. Prior to 1300 (the 12th century), the armor was almost entirely mail, and the plate components would be limited to knees, ailettes, coats of plates, etc, and not pauldrons or breastplates.

Just pointing this out as an "adjustment" to the years. You're thinking 14th century, not 13th.

[Sir James A]

Allan's new site is http://merctailor.webs.com/

[Ian]

Start with a plan and good arming garments.  As Sir Ed described, your envisioned kit is not from the 13th century.  So decide which century you're really after, or decide to do a fantasy kit.  Either way, once you decide what type of armor you want to wear, before you purchase a single piece of it, I highly recommend squaring away the arming garments first.  With bad arming garments you can have the nicest most expensive custom made harness on the planet and it will not function or be comfortable.

If you're interested in trying to be historically accurate, please ask and we will guide you properly.  You may be surprised what really belongs with what from a historical standpoint.   If you want to go fantasy, then the sky's the limit.

[Sir Jason Simonds]

I am definitely trying to stay away from Fantasy as much as possible. I am going for more period correct. That being said, thou we may not have proof, various combinations of armor were more than likely worn due to costs for the lower knights. So I am not looking to go full set of plate armor or full matching kits at this time due to the same issue. But I am looking at the more than likely this would have been worn style kits.

As stated before I want to start with the Great Helm and work from there. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Ian]

I am definitely trying to stay away from Fantasy as much as possible. I am going for more period correct. That being said, thou we may not have proof, various combinations of armor were more than likely worn due to costs for the lower knights. So I am not looking to go full set of plate armor or full matching kits at this time due to the same issue. But I am looking at the more than likely this would have been worn style kits.

As stated before I want to start with the Great Helm and work from there. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

What style of great helm?  That will determine era and pretty much everything else if you want to build it around a particular helm you have in mind.  Just be forewarned, if you're interested in historically accurate kit, going down the 'this might have been worn together' path is very dangerous and is not really a valid way of doing something with accuracy.  In period, there's really no such thing as the elusive 'poor knight' or 'not so wealthy knight.'   If you were a knight in period, you were rich by modern standards.  If you want to do a yeoman man-at-arms kit, then you can maybe put together a more piecemeal kit.  That's all fine, but if you want to stick to something that is historically correct, then you may find combinations of things you envision are not combinations of things that can be justified as historical.  I'm an accuracy nut when it comes to my own kit, and I will not blow smoke up anyone's *@! when it comes to trying to do things the historical way.  I'll tell it like it is to the best of my knowledge.  All that being said, having a historically accurate kit with as little concession to inaccuracy as possible is a very rewarding path to go down.  You just have to be prepared for the work involved.

[Sir Brian]

 

All that being said, having a historically accurate kit with as little concession to inaccuracy as possible is a very rewarding path to go down.  You just have to be prepared for the work involved.

And the time and expense as well which can be prohibitive in of itself. Yet Sir Ian is absolutely correct in that if you want to be as historically accurate as possible then it would take less time and resources if you select a more specific timeline. Even a landless 'household knight' would be far better equipped than a man-at-arms as it would be fitting his noble stature since he would essentially be a token of his liege's greatness by living off his bounty.

[Sir Jason Simonds]

I think I am going to do a bit more research so I can pinpoint a timeline or 2, that can easily work together by modifying a couple items.

Right now I am looking at a similar style of Great helm as to what Sir Ed and Sir Brian wear.

http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-4418-crusader-great-helmet.aspx

[Sir Wolf]

what you need is a library day at Sir Edwards.

I think he has all (if not I do) the Osprey Men at Arms, Warrior, etc small books to look at for ideas. I like this books cause of the larger pictures and are a great jumping off point for your research.

[Sir Jason Simonds]

I was actually thinking of going to the book store today to look and see if they have any good reference material to look at. I will keep that series in mind when I go.

[Ian]

If you really want to 'gnat's ass' a great helm of that style for accuracy, skip the brass ocular, and the shaping is off and that particular one you linked.  The brass ocular is a modern invention to mimic the gilded oculars seen in contemporary artwork, which was really paint or gold leafing in period.

That particular style of great helm is generally inspired by the surviving 'Dargen Helm' dated to the second half of the 13th century.

Here's the original:



Here's a very good reproduction:
http://royaloakarmoury.com/medieval_armour_gallery.php?iden=1


Here's a slightly later period great helm of the sugarloaf style (think ca. 1300) that uses real brass leaf over steel instead of cheating with a brass ocular.


Both of those reproductions are by Jeffrey Hildebrandt, who coincidentally did Sir Ulrich's Dargen Helm reproduction with a beautiful aging effect on it, and he will tell you, he wasted a lot of money on lesser helms, and you will end up disappointed and replacing it later anyway if historical accuracy is important to you.  With armor it's worth investing in what you really want.

[Ian]

You also want to spend a lot of time looking at actual effigies to get an idea of what was really being worn together:

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/

Use the search function on that site to look at small snippets of time and locations to get an accurate visual on what knight's would be wearing.

[Sir Edward]

Yep, my style of great-helm (that I usually take to the renfaire) is really a 1270-1300 style. For use with plate armor, getting into the early-mid 1300's (14th century), it should be one of the dome-topped great helms, such as a "Pembridge" great helm.

For reference, look at the one I'm carrying here:  (click to zoom)  (I'm planning to use this one more, once I get a crest together for it)