"Mistakes are always forgivable, if one has the courage to admit them."
                -- Bruce Lee

Author Topic: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.  (Read 61591 times)

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« on: 2012-06-19, 18:54:20 »
Swordfighting: Not What You Think It Is by John Clement
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
What a horrible article.

How many times in the last decade and a half has he been challenged to prove his mettle and answer for his words only to have him be off with some piss poor excuse?

Can anyone remember the last time he fought a resisting opponent not of his tradition at something resembling full speed & power?
« Last Edit: 2012-06-19, 19:07:14 by RauttSkegg »
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #1 on: 2012-06-19, 20:35:47 »
Something that will make you even more irritated is that when he says "pretentious historical role-playing societies", or something like that, he's usually referring to the SCA. Otherwise his article starts off telling the truth, just with that sort of snide implication that he always carries, of him being right, and the rest of the world automatically being wrong, by virtue of the fact that they're not him.

As you correctly point out, he's isolated himself from the rest of the WMA/HEMA community, and vanishes when anyone challenges him to back up or prove his points. The problem with this, is that when he's right, it's still hard to take him seriously. I feel that he expects his name and number of years invested in the subject to be enough to maintain his academic integrity, but it's this sort of isolationism, single-minded interpretation, and use of derogatory attitudes to put everyone else down in nearly everything he writes that really damage his credibility. So he only comes off as credible to those outside the community and don't know any better.

This article is written in his typical way. Instead of taking the opportunity to truly teach you something, instead it seems to carry the goal of being self-aggrandizing, and diminishing to everyone else. I mean really, what was the point of completely digressing into this:

Quote
Despite the many people now claiming to be studying the historical teachings on Medieval and Renaissance swordsmanship, in their practices the majority invariably don't employ the correct postures, don't use the proper movements, don't apply the central tenets, and instead typically reduce it all down to adolescent sword-tagging games.

Really? The whole community is doing "adolescent sword-tagging"?

Realistically, I know he's very skilled and athletic, and would probably mop the floor with me in a fight. But that doesn't mean that they way the rest of the community (a community he used to be involved in and has now vanished from) is reconstructing things wrongly. Quite the opposite, I think, since I've seen over just the last 5 years all sorts of really wonderful things get discovered and interpreted better. Things which he's made statements about in other articles, and the rest of the community has had some VERY good rebuttals for.

Some of his students will defend him and argue endlessly on the forum. And frequently when they're trying to pick apart some other group's interpretation, they'll look at photos and videos of a beginner student as their example, or something that doesn't even relate to the point they're making. That part I find sickening.

Despite his skills and knowledge, I have a hard time reading his articles without getting really, really mad, just because of the attitude. He thinks he's the only authority, and he's not. No humility whatsoever.

He makes valid points about TV, movies, and stage shows (ignoring the fact that they're meant to be entertaining, not educational). But it's really disingenuous to lump the rest of HEMA, WMA, and SCA into that.

/rant.
« Last Edit: 2012-06-19, 20:36:26 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #2 on: 2012-06-19, 20:40:33 »
Crap, Sir Edward ninja'd me again and pretty much covered what I was going to write and lots more, but I'll post anyways since I went to all that trouble to dust off my Thesaurus.  ;)

I thought the article started off well enough but then the author's narcissism inevitably took over and rapidly descended into a maelstrom of utter rubbish mixed with equal parts of self glorification and petty condescension to any potential difference of opinion. All in all it is sad that someone who has invested so much time and effort lacks the basic social skills and honor to convey his knowledge to others without such a horrendously bitter aftertaste.
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #3 on: 2012-06-19, 21:23:17 »
I just read that article...when he gets to describing his background and history, it almost read like- "oh, look at me, I'm teh awesome" - although I'll admit to being somewhat biased since I've heard his name before, but nothing good in association with it, beyond the years he's studied the craft.  His arrogance offends me.

I will admit, however- he makes some very salient points...none of us live in a world where you could be put to the sword at a moment's notice, we don't fear for our lives in that manner.  Nuclear holocaust, foreign invasion (which is currently happening now even if no one's noticed, but that's for another topic), auto accident, terminal disease- yes.  By the sword?  Very unlikely.  So it takes away the need to know aspect and becomes a pursuit of personal desire...I'm inclined to agree with him that the lack of life or death means most of us won't be as good as our forebears, if only because it isn't required knowledge in order to help stay alive.  With that said, there are always instances and flashes of greatness that occur despite the odds or the current climate.

If living (and dying) by the sword were to ever be realized due to some malfunction of technology and weapons (say gunpowder no longer worked, I know someone somewhere's wrote a book delineating such a scenario) then I believe we'd see some truly remarkable swordsmen come about, and it might not be from where you'd think...but until that happens, all of us who strive to recreate what is essentially a dead art are simply students of the sword, as the masters died hundreds of years ago and left behind NO HOW-TO VIDEOS.

The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Sir Rodney

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,118
  • Inquit Corvus
    • The Mercenary Company Nevermore
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #4 on: 2012-06-19, 21:27:49 »
Same old, same old.  Some people will never change.  :(
"Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history." - Roger the Shrubber

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #5 on: 2012-06-19, 21:44:56 »
He's no Mike Loades, Gemini Asonte, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler, Ken Mondshein, or Toby Capwell.
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #6 on: 2012-06-20, 04:12:41 »
Since everyone so elegantly covered this, I'll paraphrase by saying something my dad likes to say. "Same ****, different bucket."
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Joshua Santana

  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,002
  • Honorare scutum meum, veritas mea gladio
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #7 on: 2012-06-20, 23:59:05 »
Everyone here has eloquently said what I had in mind while this trashy article.  Here are a few extra points I had in mind.

What makes him so important that he has to take an elitist stance that everyone is an amatuer except him?  What about the contributions made Gregory Mele?  Christian Tobler?  Ken Mondshein?  Tom Leoni?  Is he saying that their contributions to the HEMA Community are garbage?  If so what contributions has he made so far besides repeating himself?

How skilled is he?  I imagine that he is exceptionally skilled but is he skilled to prove his teaching are better than any other instructors?  I need to see it to believe it.  Or better get him to fight against me and I will show how skilled he is.  (Pun intended)  But really how skilled is he?  I would like to see how he would fare against someone like Jake Norwood or Guy Windsor.  That would be awesome.

Last point:  YOU SON OF A GUN, HOW DARE YOU BAD MOUTH THE COMMUNITY! >:(  Now I am pissed, you mean to tell us that we are a bunch of loosers while we have done more accurate research than you have and formed better interpretations of combat techniques than you who swears that your method is better than ours In short: WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE! >:(

 
Knight of The Lion Blade

Honora gladium meum, veritas mea, et Spirítui Sancto.  כדי לכבד המגן שלי, האמת שלי חרבי

Honor My Sword, Truth My Shield.

SirNathanQ

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,742
  • "Nobiscum Deus" "Libertas ad omnes civitates"
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #8 on: 2012-06-21, 01:13:44 »
Well, my last vestiges of respect for ARMA or John Clements have been officially destroyed (as if the rapier stab to the groin video wasn't enough  ::)) I swear, all I heard from what was
"I'm a pretentious D-Bag! I think I'm better than everyone else! I could defeat you all, but I won't accept any fights because I'm obviously that much better! Grrrrrrr!!!!! Watch me defeat more of my own students!"
Yeah, he raises a god point, that we don't live or die by the sword, but neither does he and his students. And I seriously doubt anyone trains exactly like and with the time and dedication of a knight in period, or a swordmaster of the period. It's not like his students are forced to quit their day job and go live and train in the secret douche-colony of John Clements to train for hours every single day unceasingly! Or maybe he should follow through on some of his claims and actually make his students and himself live or die by the sword and use sharps. Then hopefully he'd get a debilitating injury and we wouldn't have to listen to his stupid rants.....  8)

"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect." -Carl Von Clausewitz
"He is truly a fearless knight and secure on every side, for his soul is protected by the armor of faith just as his body is protected by armor of steel." -Saint Bernard of Clairvoux

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #9 on: 2012-06-21, 13:15:43 »
I would like to see how he would fare against someone like Jake Norwood or Guy Windsor.  That would be awesome.

Actually Jake Norwood used to be an ARMA student. Until he saw the light, and realized there's a much wider world out there. Now Jake's a valuable member of the rest of the HEMA world, with a lot to contribute. I know we're all glad to have him.

Or maybe he should follow through on some of his claims and actually make his students and himself live or die by the sword and use sharps. Then hopefully he'd get a debilitating injury and we wouldn't have to listen to his stupid rants.....  8)

Somewhere there's a video of him and one of his "inner circle" dudes fighting with sharps. They're keeping it pretty controlled and careful... and yet... Seriously? Accidents happen. I don't think I'd trust myself well enough, let alone anyone else, to keep it safe for that.
« Last Edit: 2012-06-22, 14:20:01 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #10 on: 2012-06-21, 14:32:53 »
I would like to see how he would fare against someone like Jake Norwood or Guy Windsor.  That would be awesome.
Actually Jake Norwood used to be one of his students. Until he saw the light, and realized there's a much wider world out there. Now Jake's a valuable member of the rest of the HEMA world, with a lot to contribute. I know we're all glad to have him.

Which gives me hope for others who are still training with John. Although I only met Jake twice and attended one training session at his school as a sort of 'exchange' student with a couple of other MASHS students, he impressed me not only with his infallible manners but his extremely humble yet skilled instruction.

Or maybe he should follow through on some of his claims and actually make his students and himself live or die by the sword and use sharps. Then hopefully he'd get a debilitating injury and we wouldn't have to listen to his stupid rants.....  8)

Somewhere there's a video of him and one of his "inner circle" dudes fighting with sharps. They're keeping it pretty controlled and careful... and yet... Seriously? Accidents happen. I don't think I'd trust myself well enough, let alone anyone else, to keep it safe for that.

Boy o’ boy that just exudes a total John Kreese (Sensei of Cobra Kai) mentality which is infantile at best. Total nut-jobs like him are truly a danger not only to themselves but to anyone else foolish enough to train with them as well as poor examples of the art to the uninformed.  ::)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #11 on: 2012-06-21, 15:06:23 »
I'm searching to see if I can find the video with the sharps, and no luck yet. Though here's one with JC and one of his other guys doing a fight with blunts, and no face or hand protection. :)

http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23405

For reference, this is the sort of thing that can go wrong with sharps (see attached image). Supposedly this injury was done by a student to himself when missing a static cutting target. I'm not sure who it was, it was mentioned on myArmoury.
« Last Edit: 2012-06-21, 15:11:38 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #12 on: 2012-06-21, 16:15:32 »
Clements has ~30 years of experience, has been a consultant on a number of things, has had access to original manuscripts that 99% of us will never get to see or touch, and, having taken a class with him in person ... he's a really motivated, energetic, good teacher. Because of that, the saddest part of the article, to me, is that he persists in his 'holier than thou' attitude; and if he'd just step off his pedestal, he could have some great contributions to the community. >:(

And ... Ick! That picture still strikes fear in me every time, since I first saw it! I'm going to ramble for a minute, since it's an important topic. The picture is from here:

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sword-fighting.html
(scroll down to 'ONE FINAL WORD ON SWORD SAFETY')

Quote
This injury was caused by a Gladius sword that cut right through the target and kept going, biting deep into the cutters leg and causing him to lose 6 pints of blood and requiring 66 stiches and emergency surgery...

Swords are not toys. So please, for your own sake AT THE VERY LEAST, read the ebook and watch the video to avoid this kind of thing happening to you...

For anyone who doubts that swords can't cause brutal injuries just because we live in an 'advanced age' compared to the 'medieval muck-dwellers' ... stare at that picture, and think about 66 stitches and losing 6 pints of blood. We're around swords a lot, and we have to be vigilant to not become too 'used to it', and we must treat them with the respect they deserve. If we don't, we start to gamble, literally, with limbs and lives.

For reference, average male adults have 10-12 pints of blood, so you're talking 50% or higher blood loss.... safety, respect, and more safety!
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #13 on: 2012-06-21, 18:19:13 »
I have not taken much umbrage from John's words, if only because I don't know the man personally and he doesn't know me...I'm nothing special, just not of a mind to take offense when he is clearly not referring to me, or you guys.

As flagrant as his self-worship is, he does make some salient points...sword fighting is NOT what most people think it is, he's right about that.  99% of the world-at-large thinks swordfighting is what we've seen on the big screen, swashbuckling, gung-ho, balletic even, if that's a word.  Sounds right.  In any case...he has a point; I don't agree with casting broad aspersions as he does- it seems to me that he writes from a stance of aggravation...maybe some onlooker or budding student expressed some form of derision at what he considers his life's work.  Since I can fully understand not being understood, I'd be willing to give him a pass on that one.  That might not be the case...and if it is not, so be it.  He is one man among many...he might even be the best, but there will come one who can best him, that is part of the natural order of things.  Except for Bruce Lee...none could stand him, you'll not tell me different!  ;)

I inject a little levity to say this- none of us should take ownership for his snide comments to the sword community at-large, it simply does not apply to us.  To varying degrees, everyone here has an understanding of the sword, its history, its allure and its lethality.  We're also human, so we're prone to mistakes, misplaced bravado (at least in my case), but these are things that can be remedied with time, study and application.

I do dumb stuff from time to time...sometimes, I'm aware even when doing it; it is a personality issue with me, I'm imperfect and I know it.  I also know that I could probably learn a lot from this man, if I could just get past his massive ego- but who cares, I'm not interested and his rant is just one of many that can be found on any given subject on the Internet.  Dump it and move on.

The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

SirNathanQ

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,742
  • "Nobiscum Deus" "Libertas ad omnes civitates"
Re: John Clement, not being knightly.... again.
« Reply #14 on: 2012-06-21, 22:12:14 »
http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sword-fighting.html
(scroll down to 'ONE FINAL WORD ON SWORD SAFETY')

Quote
This injury was caused by a Gladius sword that cut right through the target and kept going, biting deep into the cutters leg and causing him to lose 6 pints of blood and requiring 66 stiches and emergency surgery...

Swords are not toys. So please, for your own sake AT THE VERY LEAST, read the ebook and watch the video to avoid this kind of thing happening to you...

For anyone who doubts that swords can't cause brutal injuries just because we live in an 'advanced age' compared to the 'medieval muck-dwellers' ... stare at that picture, and think about 66 stitches and losing 6 pints of blood. We're around swords a lot, and we have to be vigilant to not become too 'used to it', and we must treat them with the respect they deserve. If we don't, we start to gamble, literally, with limbs and lives.

For reference, average male adults have 10-12 pints of blood, so you're talking 50% or higher blood loss.... safety, respect, and more safety!

And then think that the sword that dealt that blow was a gladius, a sword not optimized for cutting, and the person cut himself (assuming from that that he tried to slow down, or at least had an extremely awkward cut).    Also, it was the lower leg, one of the not so freakishly lethal areas of the body. Imagine if it was a longsword, or say John clements' life-risking sharp duel went wrong? Cuts actually made at another person, with good form, to the torso, or God forbid, the neck. The potential for insta-death/maim in a longsword duel with sharps is enormous, and could met out blows to make that horrific cut look tame!

Sir William, we take offence because we DO consider ourselves part of the community at large of which he accuses of playing "adolescent sword-tagging games" I personally can attest that the efficiency of the fighters we train with, learn from, and watch prove itself to be far beyond "adolescent sword-tagging games"

I recognize that he does have skill, resources, is reasonably intelligent, has experience, and has teaching ability. That's honestly the worst part, that he should know better, and probably has much to contribute, if he'd just get off the high horse and talk to people.
"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect." -Carl Von Clausewitz
"He is truly a fearless knight and secure on every side, for his soul is protected by the armor of faith just as his body is protected by armor of steel." -Saint Bernard of Clairvoux