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Trial by combat
Das Bill:
You guys are killing me with giving praise to Kingdom of Heaven. ;) That movie was atrocious! Nevermind all the historical innaccuracies, nevermind that the fighting in it was horrible (and believe me, it is)... the movie was just so boring. :) I don't care that there's a reference to a historical manuscript in terms of fighting. I'll give them props for that, but taking a stance from a manuscript and saying the name of it is not the same thing as actually portraying actual techniques in a believable but exciting way. There are people out there who do it, and do it well, but it's not really worth a director's time and money to also train them to be good at the other things they need for the movie (like acting ability).
--- Quote ---i considered the sword fight in the end a fantasy match, because back in the day, fighting a rapier wielding opponent with a Scottish broadsword would be considered unfair. Duels were foughtb using single weapons (rapier vs, rapier, broadsword vs. broadsword), there were no duels in which weapons were matched against different weapons. It was against the dueling rules.
--- End quote ---
Well, sort of. You're right that duels required matched weapons, and you're right that the movie was more or less fantasy, as there was nothing about it that reflected the rules and ettiquette of a real historical duel of the period. But a rapier vs broadsword was ridiculously common. Those are considered matched weapons, because they're both single handed swords with two edges and hand protection. It's a very modern thing to assume huge differences between different types of swords, but in period that was far less true, because a sword is a sword. Rapier can be used with broadswords, and broadsword techniques can be used with rapiers. The Italians didn't even use the word "rapier", but rather just called anything with a cutting blade and a hilt a "spada" (i.e. a "sword"). Even when historical masters did differentiate, they still talked about what to do if you were armed one way and your opponent the other way in a duel, so we know they definitely did duels this way.
Joshua Santana:
--- Quote ---Well, sort of. You're right that duels required matched weapons, and you're right that the movie was more or less fantasy, as there was nothing about it that reflected the rules and ettiquette of a real historical duel of the period. But a rapier vs broadsword was ridiculously common. Those are considered matched weapons, because they're both single handed swords with two edges and hand protection. It's a very modern thing to assume huge differences between different types of swords, but in period that was far less true, because a sword is a sword. Rapier can be used with broadswords, and broadsword techniques can be used with rapiers. The Italians didn't even use the word "rapier", but rather just called anything with a cutting blade and a hilt a "spada" (i.e. a "sword"). Even when historical masters did differentiate, they still talked about what to do if you were armed one way and your opponent the other way in a duel, so we know they definitely did duels this way.
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REALLY!?! That is awesome! Thank you for the needed correction by the way. I only learned that from inquiring from Maestro Ramon Martinez concerning this.
Also concerning KOH, Sorry, but never the less: I am in full agreement that KOH is one of the biggest disgrace in cinematic history. Point taken.
Sir William:
This is gold here...soaking it all up as much as possible! What Bill says is a testament to a lot of misconceptions we have regarding this particular part of history. My thanks Bill for setting the records straight.
For what it's worth, I praise KoH mostly for the photography...but I'd be lying if I didn't include that the mass battle scenes were quite fascinating to me although the last battle before Balian gives up Jerusalem left a lot to be desired. Viewed from above, it looked like a rugby scrum that had somehow synchronized as they were all pushing in tandem in an almost rhythmic fashion, no weapon play to be seen. Maybe it was just me but that scene always sat oddly with me.
Thorsteinn:
--- Quote from: Das Bill on 2011-06-15, 20:02:32 ---Well, sort of. You're right that duels required matched weapons, and you're right that the movie was more or less fantasy, as there was nothing about it that reflected the rules and ettiquette of a real historical duel of the period. But a rapier vs broadsword was ridiculously common. Those are considered matched weapons, because they're both single handed swords with two edges and hand protection. It's a very modern thing to assume huge differences between different types of swords, but in period that was far less true, because a sword is a sword. Rapier can be used with broadswords, and broadsword techniques can be used with rapiers. The Italians didn't even use the word "rapier", but rather just called anything with a cutting blade and a hilt a "spada" (i.e. a "sword"). Even when historical masters did differentiate, they still talked about what to do if you were armed one way and your opponent the other way in a duel, so we know they definitely did duels this way.
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And also there is the Einvigi (informal, almost no rules) and the Holmganga (formal, several rules). There is a quote somewhere that says, to effect, that an inexperienced warrior may have an easier time in the Einvigi than the Holmganga as they will have less to worry about even though they are in greater danger.
Joshua Santana:
--- Quote ---My thanks Bill for setting the records straight.
--- End quote ---
My thanks also goes to Bill!
--- Quote ---And also there is the Einvigi (informal, almost no rules) and the Holmganga (formal, several rules). There is a quote somewhere that says, to effect, that an inexperienced warrior may have an easier time in the Einvigi than the Holmganga as they will have less to worry about even though they are in greater danger.
--- End quote ---
Quite interesting! Thanks Rauttskegg for the Nordic perspective of dueling!
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