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Author Topic: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.  (Read 24009 times)

Thorsteinn

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LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« on: 2011-03-27, 18:22:38 »
Is there a good manual out there (non-Chiv Bookshelf) that shows how to do English Quarterstaff?

One of the instructors for my local HEMA Alliance school asked me if there was anything I would be really interested in and this is it. My staff work is sorely lacking and I could use some help.

Got idea's?

-Ivan
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Sir Brian

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #1 on: 2011-03-28, 16:43:57 »
...My staff work is sorely lacking and I could use some help.
Got idea's?
-Ivan

Please Ivan for the love of all that is holy do not tempt us with such openings! ;)
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Sir James A

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #2 on: 2011-03-28, 18:33:42 »
I have not seen any extant manuals about it, I would wager the best bet would be perhaps amazon.com or ebay?
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Thorsteinn

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #3 on: 2011-03-28, 23:55:19 »
@Sir Brian: Bring out the whiskey mother. I'm feeling frisky mother. Bring out the prize ram.....

OK, so a quick book search on Amazon called up these two. Have any of you read them? What was your thoughts?

The Fighting Staff by Dwight C. McLemore

and

Fighting With The Quarterstaff by David Lindholm


-Ivan

BTW Fun Fact: Near as one of our guys can tell, Japanese Yari form & Italian Glaive form are identical. Figures. Humans wielding a 7 ft pokey that's a bit cutty too can only move so many ways, and the forms have a lot in common with staff fighting. Just like spear has a lot in common with staff fighting.
« Last Edit: 2011-03-28, 23:56:46 by RauttSkegg »
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John

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #4 on: 2011-08-25, 09:22:18 »
I own both of those books. They are both good.

Lindholm's book interprets various western masters from medieval to early 20th century), and has photo sequences. It has a lot of short sequences, but spends less time on the basics. The exception to this is the stuff at the end of the manual from the Boy Scout tradition of staff work (circa 1900 for that chapter). This book also explains the context around the different master's styles. If you've spent more than 10 hours training with staves, get this one first.

McLemore's book combines western and eastern traditions, and teaches them as a coherent system. This is an excellent book for learning the basics. This a is a particularly good book for an instructor who wants to teach staff fighting.

In summary, buy both of them.


In addition, check out the videos at http://www.quarterstaff.org/ where they demonstrate a series of solo and partner routines.


Every expert I've read says that staff work is similar the world over. As you say, a stick is a stick is a stick. And regardless of skin colour, bones will break the same. So also look at other cultures staff books and videos. There is a caveat with this, diet. For example, for hundreds of years the Japanese had a restricted diet which limited their growth. During this time they developed martial techniques that suited short legs and long torsos. Possibly this was an issue in Europe after the famines at the beginning of the 14th century?

Another issue to consider, some teachers of martial arts teach footwork that is designed for the flat floors of a training hall. This can lead to a gliding style of footwork. All good until you go outside into the real world full of tree roots, ditches, and stones.
« Last Edit: 2011-08-26, 07:15:05 by John »

Thorsteinn

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #5 on: 2011-08-30, 01:47:39 »
My footwork confuses HEMA, EMA, & Olympic Fencers as I am used to the SCA Tourney field of the West Kingdom (which is outside) thus I will pick up my feet & not glide.
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Sir James A

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #6 on: 2011-09-01, 17:52:15 »
My footwork confuses HEMA, EMA, & Olympic Fencers as I am used to the SCA Tourney field of the West Kingdom (which is outside) thus I will pick up my feet & not glide.

That's proper footwork, in my opinion. Try saying "sorry, I can't fight you here, let's go over 4 blocks to the gym where the floor is flat". :)
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John

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #7 on: 2011-09-02, 05:29:17 »
Fighting outside? That's not cricket, mate! ;)

Thorsteinn

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #8 on: 2011-09-03, 00:34:31 »
Also parrying with force and striking through blocks seems to upset many non-armoured weapon using folk. They say it's dangerous and "This isn't the SCA. This isn't heavy fighting". I say I learned it in Tae Kwon Do when I was 11 as well.

I guess some grown men are not as tough as an 11 yr old boy.
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Sir Rodney

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #9 on: 2011-09-03, 01:06:20 »
Quote from: RauttSkegg
... I guess some grown men are not as tough as an 11 yr old boy.

 :) ;)
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John

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #10 on: 2011-09-03, 20:01:23 »
Also parrying with force and striking through blocks seems to upset many non-armoured weapon using folk. They say it's dangerous and "This isn't the SCA. This isn't heavy fighting"

I was a twat a couple of trainings ago, chap came in late, puts on mail, spaulders, open faced helm, heater, and I had a big stick. He held his sword upright with his hand near his right shoulder, and I launched a series of down right blows to the weak of his sword. His sword would be knocked past his face, again, and again. He packed a tantrum. Whilst he never explained why, I believe it's because it is a little disconcerting to come in cold and have anything coming in near the head. Especially his own sword, which was out of his control. It was a safe strike because of the angle and distance. But on a primal level he felt he was in genuine danger of harm. In light of this I've made an effort to slow down when fighting him with a staff.

Everyone has their comfort level, and there are many people more concerned with winning during sparring. They like to have rules in place that make it easy for them to win, and hard for them to lose :). The same strike, delivered ten centimetres closer would have made his helmet ring like a bell. But I'm not allowed to do it because my club does not allow head shots when someone is wearing an open helm. Fair enough, it is difficult to strike at someone's head, and pull the blow, unless you're swinging at an incredibly slow speed. But it does swing the fight in the favour of someone with a large shield, because only the lower legs are exposed.

However, how fun is it to have someone opposing you without a shield? I love it when someone holds a sword out in front of them. A good hard whack to the weak of their sword can send it flying out of their hands :). When rules require the pulling of blows, this is cheating! The same strike can not be done to the agent's body. It is too hard. So we have a situation where we favour striking their weapon, to open them up, as opposed to striking both their weapon and their body. If we slow down our attack, to match the speed that is safe for contacting their body, the agent is unlikely to respect our blow-pulling, and they will cheat by swinging their weapon at full speed against our staff. Striking at the fastest possible speed is martial, but can be illegal under tournament rules.

It seems the best way around this is to talk with our opponents, spar with them regularly. Once they know that we are safe fighters they will often agree to waive some of the safety rules - and spar in a more martial manner.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-03, 20:42:29 by John »

Thorsteinn

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #11 on: 2011-09-03, 21:42:51 »
@John: Well said! Also it looks like you are having big fun in the pics.

The thing I spoke of was about a man who tried to start a HEMA club here in Reno. He wanted to do mostly unarmoured longsword waster work, did not want to require cup's for men & groin protection for women, refused to wear decent protection for his hands, and wanted to fight no holds barred but with power & speed to a safe modicum.

The result was that I broke his finger when he missed a block (he blamed me and not the unpadded gloves he was wearing), complained anytime someone did a take down on him (or a kick or a punch), and had several others thwack him due to his lack of.... heart in sparring (he tended to do things that we didn't expect/were unsafe). He has left now and is headed for Glasgow, Scotland which is too bad because I did find HEMA stuff fun just not the way he did it. We only found out about a year in that he had done about 3 months of EMA before starting fencing and had never done any competition or intense sparring prior to starting the club. Had we only known.

Now, in my defense, I am known as a "Hit Hard, Take Light" kind of guy (:D) who just happens to hit his mama with sticks. It was an accident really, I was swinging and she stubbornly refused to move her head. ;)



-Ivan

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John

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #12 on: 2011-09-04, 01:53:24 »
Injuries happen. More armour just means you get hurt in new places :). Safety is a combination of training, personal discipline, armour, environment, and sound offence (if you hit the other guy, he won't hit you, ergo you are safe). We have a girl in our club who used to fear fighting with staves. She worried that her fingers would get mashed. All she had ever been taught was to use centre grip. As soon as she learnt about quarter and end grips, she started to enjoyed using staves. Bit of a bugger for your former instructor. Hopefully it encouraged him to put greater focus on safety.

15 years ago I belonged to a school of defence (Wellington Swords & Shields), for a year. I was a teenager at the time. Back then, welding gloves were considered sufficient protection. Oddly enough the worst injury I got was when I tried to kick a girl with a dagger. I still have a scar on my shin. Now the minimum protection for sparring, in many NZ clubs, is welding gloves and a steel helm with a nasal. New people are encouraged to wear any modern plastic armour they can, but it's optional. Probably the riskiest person I know is someone who used to wear a 14th century harness, and now fights with just a gambeson. People who know him constantly forget he doesn't have plate on, and whack him quite hard! The benefit to low armour requirements is that it encourages a healthy respect of weapons, despite them being rebated. It's that respect which does the most for making tourneying safe. On the flip side I've had people refuse to take shots when I use a staff. They think it should be shod with iron before it can do real damage. Easily solved though, hit them harder, and harder, until they take their hits.

Training with a pell is helpful. It can help to understand what you can do with your weapon, and what you can't. I've learnt that there is little power in a shot that starts from a high guard and ends in a hanging guard, targeted at the lower leg.

Ergo if an opponent blocks a low shot, or is wearing plate on their lower leg, it is unlikely that I can power through to harm them. "Little power" is a relative term, I'm comparing the strike with one launched from the same guard that descends upon the head or upper body.

I've also learnt that pool queue thrusts are only valid for striking the face, or unarmoured hands. A two handed thrust is necessary on other parts of the body. See the two photos below showing the end result of thrusts launched from the same stance.

A full two handed thrust.


A pool queue thrust.


Ivan your video is showing you doing rattan fighting yes? A member of my club went to an SCA event earlier in the year. He came back raving about how much fun he had with rattans. I'd like to add that style of sparring to our club. What I like about it is that it is possible to hit with power, and still be safe. I think it'd complement the training we do with rebated steel weapons. There is a tendency to 'take turns' at hitting each other, and resting in guards - instead of constant movement. I believe that soft wasters, like rattans, would encourage continual movement.

Have you, or anyone else reading, tried out the wasters designed by Rawlings in the UK? See http://www.theknightshop.co.uk/catalog/rawlings-synthetic-sparring-longsword-p-2472.html) for their longsword waster and an old sparring video. They have two models of wasters, their standard, and their Xtreme. The Xtreme is 2nd generation, taking into account complaints about the originals being a little too bendy on thrusting. The video shows the older model. I think the older model would be perfect for noobs, and the newer one would suit more experienced fighters.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-04, 03:35:33 by John »

Sir Rodney

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #13 on: 2011-09-06, 13:56:33 »
I'm in the same school of thought as Ivan "Hit hard & take light".  This has served me well for more than a dozen years.  Injuries happen in any sport, contact or not!  I had my right thumb crushed (tendon damage, etc.) by a half-hearted strike through my well padded SCA style mitten gauntlets with a solid thumb.  You just never know what's going to happen.  Earlier this season I received a massive two-handed strike from a polearm to my (armoured) shin and didn't even get a bruise!  You just never know...

John, thank you for sharing your pell work.  The pell has obviously seen a ton of abuse!
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John

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Re: LF good manual for English Quarterstaff.
« Reply #14 on: 2011-09-07, 09:55:52 »
All smoke and mirrors mate :). The marks were made on the day I first used it, it's just the contrast between the weathered exterior and the clean timber underneath. It's now completely covered in scrap carpet. This makes it much more neighbour friendly, reduces bounce, and saves my delicate hands.
« Last Edit: 2011-09-07, 09:59:13 by John »